The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)

<< < (60/74) > >>

jonas:

--- Quote from: Arjan on September 01, 2017, 11:15:14 AM ---Tessa sacrificing herself??? That is really more likely than Nic just lying? And if Nic knew Tessa was prepaired to sacrifice herself he would jump to it.
--- End quote ---
For her Daughter, not for him.
--- Quote ---No it explained why Tessa shifted the blame to Michael, it is easier and the fallen wanted it.
--- End quote ---
Which doesn't address the fact she accepted what happened because she wanted the end result. You can't say she's suddenly that delusional from earlier actively trying to save her daughter. It's this tangent of other opinions that won't really prove anything btw. it's not on focus.

--- Quote ---  Whatever they think those two are not really their own boss.one possibility is that Nicodemus just lied. The other possibility is that Tessa with a few ghouls wanted to take over Nicodemus operation, sacrifice herself in stead of her daughter and then somehow after her dead give the grail to her daughter without Nicodemus getting it from her. That means Tessa has to kill Nicodemus as well?
--- End quote ---
Blah? why is this even a thing when wanting it for yourself and willing to sacrifice for your daughter isn't the same as willing to help your rival husband or die on his terms. If your not gonna stick to at least 1st gen theorizing, which is to say the first leap in logic from a fact, i'm going to stop keeping to it as well. Have you SEEN my in depth theories!? Going off of sheer opinionated tangentals we'll never solve for x. I'll play the infinite game theory against you if I must.


--- Quote ---Because otherwise she could just walk in and tell nicodemus she wanted to die in her daughters place.

It is difficult to prove that Nicodemus lied if one is prepared to take virtual impossible scenarios as more likely than Nicodemus just lying.
--- End quote ---
But in order to prove he's lying all you have to do is line up one complete action with one completely different set of statements. I gave you the easy job here. Considering you know, how many people claim he's a liar and all, you'd think something just concrete would come up with a 'blatant' liar, Except we're still here...


--- Quote ---Because even if the scenario was true the chance that Nicodemus believed it was certainly zero.
Also Nicodemus did not really want it, he wanted the dagger. Which was proven by the fact that he stated that he wanted it as agreed upon by Kringle and Harry.
--- End quote ---
aye aye aye.... Which says nothing of the fact he does want the cup. He want's all the pieces, the dagger was just most important. Going back to my bk reference, not giving me the fires for my burger would not invalidate the burger itself.
--- Quote ---Watch when she answers Harry in small favor about her motives. Compare that with Nicodemus in skin game.
--- End quote ---
If you insist on going off in tangents, explain them so their understandable by the context of the post please. This doesn't even show your logic it just says read to passages and i'll know it. Read 16 book, 100's of written woj's an video's and you'll get where i'm coming from. I don't really have to explain anything to anyone, cause it's all there for them to pick up themselves right? cool, that just won every disagreement i'll ever have on here :)
--- Quote ---Mab is not really interested in the swords, the white god can handle his own stuff.
--- End quote ---
Non Germaine to the point being made.


--- Quote ---And if Harry and Nicodemus agree on what happened then she has nothing to say about it, whether she believes it or not.

--- End quote ---
It wasn't agreed upon, and Harry monolgues what i'm talking about knowing she won't be able to pin anything on Nic untoward there based on his Lawyering of his intention. Which goes to show the lawyering matters far more then the actual intention. The intention was either or most likely.

Mira:

--- Quote ---At the point where Karrin appears with Fid, Harry and Butters have basically given up on being able to escape Nicodemus' trap and have decided to fight them.  Everyone's preparing for a fight, and the second Dresden strikes, they all die.  If Karrin doesn't show up with Fid, then Nick gets personal revenge and Mab is obligated to replace him with a servant of equal competence - which she has.  Technically, Mab could offer Lea's services, and I think that Lea would have a pretty easy chance of getting through the gate of ice.
--- End quote ---

If Murphy wasn't there, or if Nic via Andriel didn't know she had the Sword... It wouldn't have happened at all.. If Murphy wasn't there Nic wouldn't have jeopardized the bargain in the first place... Harry could have chased Butters and I bet you a nickle that Nic wouldn't have done anything..  What's the point?  Butters was no threat to him, and he knew how Harry would react... Again speaks of a ruse/set up what ever you want to call it to get a Sword broken.

--- Quote ---Also, I’ve been thinking more about the ‘pro forma quid pro quo’, and I don’t believe that it signifies that both Harry and Nicodemus broke the pact, and so therefore they cancel each other out.  Yes, quid pro quo does signify that one thing is being exchanged for another, but pro forma is a statement that something is done as a matter of form, or as an estimate. 
--- End quote ---

Which is exactly the conclusion that Harry comes to when it is over and Nic mocks him a bit about not being able to recognize a ruse when he saw one...  It is Harry's "oh shit he's right," moment...  Even Murphy getting severely hurt had no relevance to the deal.

--- Quote ---On a slightly different topic, I’ve been thinking of the Genoskwa’s actions during this fight.  Nicodemus commands Gen to kill Harry and to make it hurt.  And Gen… just doesn’t take the opportunity.  Yes, it can be argued that maybe Gen was just enjoying torturing Harry too much.  But he’s made it perfectly clear that he would enjoy nothing more but killing him.  Why doesn’t Gen kill Harry when ordered to?
--- End quote ---

Because he wasn't, as Nic again smugly pointed out, if he had orders to kill, crushing Harry's skull would only take seconds...  The moment he could have killed Harry was when Harry finally realized what Nic was pulling and tried to warn Murphy not to try and kill Nic with the Sword after he surrenders..  But he didn't, he just held him in such a way that no sound came out..  Nic didn't want to break his deal with Mab, he was never going to kill Harry..

--- Quote ---It’s clear that whatever thing that Nicodemus is attempting to achieve, that this heist is deadly critical to achieving that goal.  He would not sacrifice his daughter, the person that he loves and trusts more than anything in the world, in order to just get a new supernatural artifact that he just found out about.  If it’s critical enough to kill Deidre over, then I don’t think that there’s a chance – not a chance in hell – that Nicodemus would knowingly do anything that would rob him of the person he needs to get through the gate of ice.

Which means that Nicodemus wouldn’t put anything up to chance.  I don’t believe that he would chance killing Dresden unless it was completely obvious that he had betrayed him, simply because he doesn’t know for sure if the Queen of Tricksey Faeries has eyes on the situation or not.  That’s not something that Nicodemus would risk on a job so critical.  And by the same token, I don’t believe that he would give the command for the Genoskwa to kill Dresden unless he was absolutely certain that he would not.  Because if there’s any ambiguity about Dresden’s death, then the job is off.

So when the Genoskwa does not kill Harry, even though given ample time to and commanded to do so, this strikes me as very conspicuou
--- End quote ---
Exactly, all part of an elaborate ruse to get a Sword broken..

--- Quote ---I think it was more than likely that Nicodemus had a conversation with all of his hidden Denarians – that due to the circumstance of the bargain with Mab, none of them were allowed to kill him.  Period.  That makes the most sense; if Dresden is to die, Nicodemus would want to be in control so that he could not accidently lose the retainer from Winter that he was owed.
--- End quote ---

Not until the mission was over, then let the double crossing begin, then the efforts to kill Harry were for real..

peregrine:
Harry's realization is that Nic can justify an honest attempt to kill him as a ploy, for the same reason that Harry can justify an honest attempt to work against Nic as incompetence.  Not that it turns out they were both trying some clever trick after all.

If Murphy wasn't there with the sword, what would have happened is that Butters and Harry would have died, and Nic would have gone back and demanded a new minion, since the first one broke Mab's word, trying to help someone with vital intelligence that undermines the op escape.  Where he could do things like warn the bank they're trying to break into.

As for Nic's goal to break a sword, no shit he wants to do that.  But unless you want to argue that the whole point of both Small Favor and Death Masks was not actually to get a coin in the Archive, or just cause a bunch of death to change people's mindset to something more nihilistic, but actually somehow break a sword, then maybe he can do something with another goal in mind.  Like, say, kill the guy who knows how to kill him, and prevent information that can damage his mission from getting out.

Arjan:

--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 01, 2017, 06:14:38 PM ---Plus, the other thing is that Harry did the ice run while running closer and closer to sub-antarctic temperatures. It's one thing to parkour! across a field full of monster rocks the size of buildings smashing everything in its wake. Quite another to do it while your body is convulsing with cold. On the return trip, they're running away from absolute zero.

According to general cryptozoology, I don't think that Gen would handle that very well going th other way. Maybe if he was a Yeti, but there's a difference between these cryptids.

--- End quote ---
The Genoskwa did most of the parcours while trying to kill Harry and he was heavily wounded and I do not think the parcours was that much easier from the other side.

And I expect Nicodemus to have a backup plan in case He could kill Harry earlier.

Mira:

--- Quote ---If Murphy wasn't there with the sword, what would have happened is that Butters and Harry would have died, and Nic would have gone back and demanded a new minion, since the first one broke Mab's word, trying to help someone with vital intelligence that undermines the op escape.  Where he could do things like warn the bank they're trying to break into.
--- End quote ---

No, because it was a trick to get her to pull out the Sword..   Nic boasted as much, he "wanted to put a little pressure on Murphy.." 

--- Quote ---As for Nic's goal to break a sword, no shit he wants to do that.  But unless you want to argue that the whole point of both Small Favor and Death Masks was not actually to get a coin in the Archive, or just cause a bunch of death to change people's mindset to something more nihilistic, but actually somehow break a sword, then maybe he can do something with another goal in mind.  Like, say, kill the guy who knows how to kill him, and prevent information that can damage his mission from getting out.
--- End quote ---

No need to argue that that was the whole point of Small Favor, we all know it wasn't... However one of the bigger lumps of sugar Harry put in to sweeten the pie of coins to try and get Ivy and Marcone back was Fid.. Why?  Nic wanted it to break it.. 

 Point is, Harry wasn't killed after the Sword was broken and the snot kicked out of Murphy.  Why?  Because that wasn't his intention at that point... Oh he wants to kill Harry, sure, but he still had a use for him, then kill him... 

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page