The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
jonas:
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on September 01, 2017, 05:03:57 AM ---He use the grail as a shield, that should tell you how much he truly wants the cup.
--- End quote ---
He used the grail as a shield when he thought the Holy Knight wouldn't risk it's destruction. When Harry proves he doesn't care he ceases this tactic to avoid damage to the cup. The fact he takes a blow for the cup far outweighs a situation where he knows the knights faith will not let him do such a 'crime', or heresy I guess from Michaels perspective. Lol, it was in even less danger than Harry was from the Genoska.
jonas:
--- Quote from: Arjan on September 01, 2017, 05:18:00 AM ---I am proving he can lie by pointing to two lies and by pointing to the general understanding by everyone who knows something about him that he does.
--- End quote ---
He's two faced, he's deceptive, but I've not seen an lie yet..
--- Quote ---The lie about tessa's intentions is even more clear. Tessa had no interest in the grail at all because she tried to stop Nicodemus too early for that. She was interested in saving Deirdre from her father.
--- End quote ---
and whose to say she doesn't want it for herself? She did try and actually take Harvey for herself in fact
--- Quote ---"...You have something I want. I want you to give it to me."
--- End quote ---
SO she may have had a plan of her own if she had gotten to the resources first. She certainly wanted to stop Nic from sacrificing their daughter. But that's not all she wanted, or she would have been more pissed at Nic in the afterwards instead of training her grief upon Michaels family. She accepted what happened, she just didn't want it to happen like that. I'll admit, this is as close as you've actually pointed out to an affirmative lie, but too much shows she wanted the end goals if not the process that got them. She does want it for herself, and in her plan Deidre wasn't the sacrifice apparently.
--- Quote ---Nicodemus is a known liar. There is some other quote in the books I can not find at the moment when Michael tells it sometimes takes years to disentangle truth from lies in what the denarians say. Nobody in the books in their right mind trusts anything they say.
--- End quote ---
Citing perspectives of his enemies doesn't really show he readily lied...
--- Quote ---My originall point is that using what Nicodemus says as a proof for anything when he has clearly something to gain by lying and when it is difficult to check is folly.
--- End quote ---
Indeed, it is difficult to prove he lied outright.
--- Quote ---Expecting him to be bound by the same rules as the fae doesn't work either.
--- End quote ---
Never said he was, said he followed such regulations intentionally. I could cite various reasons to do so, giving strength to the father of lies by lying gives strength to a rival being the simplest one.. saying he lies because others tell you when you don't actually see him break faith anywhere doesn't work.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: jonas on September 01, 2017, 07:03:51 AM ---He's two faced, he's deceptive, but I've not seen an lie yet..
and whose to say she doesn't want it for herself? She did try and actually take Harvey for herself in fact SO she may have had a plan of her own if she had gotten to the resources first. She certainly wanted to stop Nic from sacrificing their daughter.
--- End quote ---
Which is incompatible with getting the grail. She did not have the means and brains to organise the raid herself so her only option to get the grail was ambushing the party when they got out, sacrificing her daughter.
Even if she aqquired Harvey and not just killed him what was far more likely she would not be able to pass and she knew it. It was not important because everything points to her not interested in the grail.
--- Quote ---But that's not all she wanted, or she would have been more pissed at Nic in the afterwards instead of training her grief upon Michaels family.
--- End quote ---
She is a denarian host. Before lying to everybody else they lie to themselves. Of course she trained her grief on Michaels family. It is because of the influence of the fallen.
They are misled by the fallen all the time. Nicodemus needed a necromancer in stead of killing his daughter. He could at least have tried a near dead experience in stead of a full one. The fallen wanted him to kill his daughter.
--- Quote ---She accepted what happened, she just didn't want it to happen like that. I'll admit, this is as close as you've actually pointed out to an affirmative lie, but too much shows she wanted the end goals if not the process that got them. She does want it for herself, and in her plan Deidre wasn't the sacrifice apparently.Citing perspectives of his enemies doesn't really show he readily lied...
--- End quote ---
Certainly if one of them is kringle who really can not lie himself, that should be enough evidence. The rest is bonus.
And she tried to stop him. Stop him in ways that made it impossible for her to retrieve the grail. Clearly according to her the grail could rot wherever it was if she could keep her daughter.
And there was another lie in that lie too. He said Tessa wanted the same thing as he did.
Mab would not be able to say all those things. If she had used deception she would have worded it differently.
--- Quote ---Indeed, it is difficult to prove he lied outright.
--- End quote ---
I just did it two times in one book. And it is clear the knights did it as well, it just took time
jonas:
--- Quote from: Arjan on September 01, 2017, 07:52:31 AM ---Which is incompatible with getting the grail. She did not have the means and brains to organise the raid herself so her only option to get the grail was ambushing the party when they got out, sacrificing her daughter.
--- End quote ---
Don't turn this into a subjective he thinks she thinks tangent line that far off center please. Suffice it to say since she apparently held the same regard for her daughter as Deidre did Nic she could have convinced Deidre to take the grail for herself with her as the sacrifice. Taking the grail for her own purposes.
--- Quote ---Even if she aqquired Harvey and not just killed him what was far more likely she would not be able to pass and she knew it. It was not important because everything points to her not interested in the grail. She is a denarian host. Before lying to everybody else they lie to themselves. Of course she trained her grief on Michaels family. It is because of the influence of the fallen.
--- End quote ---
And this proves Nic lied how?
--- Quote ---They are misled by the fallen all the time. Nicodemus needed a necromancer in stead of killing his daughter. He could at least have tried a near dead experience in stead of a full one. The fallen wanted him to kill his daughter.Certainly if one of them is kringle who really can not lie himself, that should be enough evidence. The rest is bonus.
--- End quote ---
??? what?
--- Quote ---And she tried to stop him. Stop him in ways that made it impossible for her to retrieve the grail. Clearly according to her the grail could rot wherever it was if she could keep her daughter.
--- End quote ---
.. again, what?
--- Quote ---And there was another lie in that lie too. He said Tessa wanted the same thing as he did.
--- End quote ---
... uh, well,
--- Quote ---She want's it for herself of course
--- End quote ---
That's all he said, which isn't actually saying that's the only or main reasoning for what she's doing. If she know's why Nic wants it greedy denarian probably does want it for herself.
--- Quote ---Mab would not be able to say all those things. If she had used deception she would have worded it differently.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure i'm willing to consider you an expert witness on if Mab could say it that way or how precisely she would word it. Suffice it to say she no more lied in the pretext of the deal than he did, and if she would be willing to accept how Nic broke the sword then neither did he there.
--- Quote ---I just did it two times in one book. And it is clear the knights did it as well, it just took time
--- End quote ---
No you didn't, I'm not really sure what your 2nd example even is supposed to be? An again what the knights did or did not prove hasn't been shown as anything more than an ad libbed factoid, as we know for a fact Nic destroys all the church documents every so often anyway. So they wouldn't know a lot. However, I believe what he actually said is it takes years to catch the fallen in a lie, not Nic or even the hosts in particular.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: jonas on September 01, 2017, 10:06:00 AM ---Don't turn this into a subjective he thinks she thinks tangent line that far off center please. Suffice it to say since she apparently held the same regard for her daughter as Deidre did Nic she could have convinced Deidre to take the grail for herself with her as the sacrifice. Taking the grail for her own purposes.
--- End quote ---
Tessa sacrificing herself??? That is really more likely than Nic just lying? And if Nic knew Tessa was prepaired to sacrifice herself he would jump to it.
--- Quote ---And this proves Nic lied how?
--- End quote ---
No it explained why Tessa shifted the blame to Michael, it is easier and the fallen wanted it. Whatever they think those two are not really their own boss.
--- Quote ---
??? what?
.. again, what?
--- End quote ---
one possibility is that Nicodemus just lied. The other possibility is that Tessa with a few ghouls wanted to take over Nicodemus operation, sacrifice herself in stead of her daughter and then somehow after her dead give the grail to her daughter without Nicodemus getting it from her. That means Tessa has to kill Nicodemus as well?
Because otherwise she could just walk in and tell nicodemus she wanted to die in her daughters place.
It is difficult to prove that Nicodemus lied if one is prepared to take virtual impossible scenarios as more likely than Nicodemus just lying.
Because even if the scenario was true the chance that Nicodemus believed it was certainly zero.
--- Quote ---... uh, well, That's all he said, which isn't actually saying that's the only or main reasoning for what she's doing. If she know's why Nic wants it greedy denarian probably does want it for herself.
--- End quote ---
Also Nicodemus did not really want it, he wanted the dagger. Which was proven by the fact that he stated that he wanted it as agreed upon by Kringle and Harry.
--- Quote ---I'm not sure i'm willing to consider you an expert witness on if Mab could say it that way or how precisely she would word it.
--- End quote ---
Watch when she answers Harry in small favor about her motives. Compare that with Nicodemus in skin game.
--- Quote ---Suffice it to say she no more lied in the pretext of the deal than he did, and if she would be willing to accept how Nic broke the sword then neither did he there.
--- End quote ---
Mab is not really interested in the swords, the white god can handle his own stuff.
And if Harry and Nicodemus agree on what happened then she has nothing to say about it, whether she believes it or not.
--- Quote ---No you didn't, I'm not really sure what your 2nd example even is supposed to be? An again what the knights did or did not prove hasn't been shown as anything more than an ad libbed factoid, as we know for a fact Nic destroys all the church documents every so often anyway. So they wouldn't know a lot. However, I believe what he actually said is it takes years to catch the fallen in a lie, not Nic or even the hosts in particular.
--- End quote ---
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version