The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
jonas:
--- Quote from: Arjan on September 01, 2017, 03:06:50 AM ---It is about Nicodemus lying, not Mab lying. Mab won't. Nicodemus is not bound to tell the truth the way Mab is so it makes no sense to expect him to follow rules the way Mab does.
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....Yea... and i'm pointing out he no more lied than she who cannot lie so?
--- Quote ---The fae are unique in that respect and nobody in the books applies those rules to other creatures like vampires or denarian hosts. Nobody expects Nicodemus to tell the truth either.
If he says Tessa is after the grail, that that is her beef, that is an obvious lie. We know what her beef was, what she was after. She was not interested in that cup at all, she tried to prevent the crew from Even starting the whole thing.
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So basically your trying to tell me he lies because he can lie as proof that he lies? ??? None of that proves Nic ever lied any more than Mab did, Whom obviously did not.
jonas:
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on September 01, 2017, 03:15:31 AM ---Saying that you want the grail when in truth you want something is a freaking blatant lie. A fae may to hide their intentions, but a fae can never say that they want something while in truth they want another thing. A fae might confuse you by answering a question with a question, or by simply being silent, but outright saying that they want one thing while in truth they want another thing is beyond their capabilities unless they are infected.
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Did he take the grail? Yes. Did he therefor want the grail as part of the package deal of betraying them when he goal was in sight? Probably so. Does any of that effect if he wants the Blade MORE? No. If I go to BK saying when I leave I want a whopper and when I get there I get fries because I actually wanted fries on the whopper more than the whopper I didn't lie. He omitted that he wanted the Knife more so, he didn't lie about wanting the cup, he did indeed take it and took a shot from Dresden rather than risk it's demise. So he rather DID want the cup and what it could do.
By the same vein sending your minion to help secure an object when your intent is that they 'skin them alive' would be a blatant lie. But it is not... I'm not a lawyer, but I can give queen Mab herself a run for her money ;)
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 01, 2017, 04:26:32 AM ---Not quite. Harry is looking to corner Nicodemus into breaking his word first so that Harry can act according to Mab's will without having broken Mab's word.
Yup, absolutely spot-on. It's because Harry is commanded to aid Nicodemus in his attempt to recover the grail that obligates him to follow commands that are directly related to the success of their mission.
Absolutely true. There's another type of lie that Nicodemus could be partaking in: a lie of omission. He's trapped in a position in which it's in his best interest to divulge what he's looking for, but would never be so transparent. So instead of talking about the whole collection, he just talks about one piece. It's probably the most famous piece and also the least useful; Michael even notes that he's not quite sure how Nick could use it for evil. But it's the one he presents to everyone else. The fact that he ALSO has a goal of four other divine artifacts... just never comes up.
The funny thing is, his omission of his true target is exactly what allows Dresden to hide what he's really after. Because Nick expressed that everyone was welcome to any other items in the vault if they struck his fancy, and that his objective was a cup, that made the other four items up for grabs in Mab's eye.
As for Mab, the closest she ever came to expressing her true intention in plain words was in stating that she expected Dresden to be himself, and that she expected far superior treachery from him. Dresden has to figure out for himself exactly her intentions. 'Cause she's Fae and is allergic to speaking the straight truth.
I will agree with you that the argument of incompetence is a weak one. Dresden is deceiving Gen and Nick while moving Butters into safety from everyone but himself. However, the fact does still stand that Harry's actions do not impede his ability to kill Butters, and Harry cannot truly be accused of betraying Nick until he actually does something which damages their endeavor.
I do see your point of Quid Pro Quo. If I understand you properly, you're stating that Dresden's pursuit of Butters could clearly be seen as attempting to sabotage his capture and a breach of contract. And while Harry's bashing of Binder's gents could be explained by bad luck and incompetence, his rushing Butters over to the Carpenters' yard really could not. I'm unsure if the fact that Nicodemus chose to allow this action in order to trap the sword has any weight in this situation. After all, my argument still stands when Harry accuses Nick of breaking Mab's agreement - if the agreement was broken at that point, during the chase, then Nick doesn't have to defend telling Gen to kill Harry. He can just say, "You betrayed me when you were pulling the doctor I ordered dead to safety. I was in my rights to kill you, Dresden."
I'll have to think about that one. Hm.Hoo boy. I'd love to see that battle.It was two years between Death Masks and Dead Beat, which took Snakeboy from being a decently young-looking chap to being Liverspots. Cassius is also considerably old. Nick might age rapidly, but I doubt he would age that rapidly as to affect the battle.
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Think of it in terms of profitability. That is how Nicodemous works, according to what Michael and Sanya explain things in book 5 and 10.
Of course Nick could call for Harry's betrayal and get rid of him, in which case he'll get rid of one enemy. In terms of the larger picture though, it accomplishes little. Harry is down,, and Mab would just send another agent and another unpredictable element may come into play.
It makes much more sense if Nick is really trying to get rid of the holy swords. Or in fact, Nick is actually targeting Murphy if not fid itself. The fact that fid and ammo is in her keeping should not be a secret to Nick.
In his mind, the only thing that could foil his plan is the appearance of a KoTC. Sanya is out of the picture. He is pin down in the middle east. 2 swords are in Chicago with no wielder. It is unlikely that a stranger will appear and suddenly become a knight. So the probability is one of Murphy or Harry's associate will take up the sword. The only viable candidate to wield a sword is Murphy herself, there is no one else. To make sure that Murphy won't suddenly take up a sword and become a KoTC, she must be dealt with ASAP. With her out of commission, even if fid is not broken, it is unlikely that a person that could wield a sword will appear and Nick could work his plans without worrying that Heaven will interfere.
As you can see, Murphy herself is quite a tempting target. Even if Nick does not know that she is carrying fid, the fact that she has a track record of wielding a holy sword valiantly in the past, is a serious threat to Nicodemous in itself. At any time, she could be Heaven's instrument to skrew up his plans.
Nicodemous's eyes is so focused on Murphy, he fail to see little Butters on the side.
What matters to Karrin is this. If Karrin does not appear and wield fid, at that point, thus depriving Nick from his true target, would Nicodemous just sigh in regret and let Harry go free?
Obviously not. If murphy does not wield fid and thus granting Nick what he wants, he'll likely take out his fury on Harry. This is why I mention that fid's breaking becomes Harry's salvation. Either Nick's target is truly Harry, and Murphy wielding fid distracted him from his true target, or it gaves Nick his real target and allow Harry to escape calamity.
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: jonas on September 01, 2017, 04:55:42 AM ---Did he take the grail? Yes. Did he therefor want the grail as part of the package deal of betraying them when he goal was in sight? Probably so. Does any of that effect if he wants the Blade MORE? No. If I go to BK saying when I leave I want a whopper and when I get there I get fries because I actually wanted fries on the whopper more than the whopper I didn't lie. He omitted that he wanted the Knife more so, he didn't lie about wanting the cup, he did indeed take it and took a shot from Dresden rather than risk it's demise. So he rather DID want the cup and what it could do.
By the same vein sending your minion to help secure an object when your intent is that they 'skin them alive' would be a blatant lie. But it is not... I'm not a lawyer, but I can give queen Mab herself a run for her money ;)
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He use the grail as a shield, that should tell you how much he truly wants the cup.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: jonas on September 01, 2017, 04:47:32 AM ---....Yea... and i'm pointing out he no more lied than she who cannot lie so?
So basically your trying to tell me he lies because he can lie as proof that he lies? ??? None of that proves Nic ever lied any more than Mab did, Whom obviously did not.
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I am proving he can lie by pointing to two lies and by pointing to the general understanding by everyone who knows something about him that he does.
The lie about tessa's intentions is even more clear. Tessa had no interest in the grail at all because she tried to stop Nicodemus too early for that. She was interested in saving Deirdre from her father.
Nicodemus is a known liar. There is some other quote in the books I can not find at the moment when Michael tells it sometimes takes years to disentangle truth from lies in what the denarians say. Nobody in the books in their right mind trusts anything they say.
My originall point is that using what Nicodemus says as a proof for anything when he has clearly something to gain by lying and when it is difficult to check is folly.
Expecting him to be bound by the same rules as the fae doesn't work either.
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