The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
Mira:
--- Quote ---But taking the coin and noose is definitely out of the question. Take that away, and Nick will get desperate. He might decide to cut his losses and take Harry's life as consolation prize first, and deal with Mab later.
--- End quote ---
He might try to kill Harry that is true, but Nic would be a rapidly aging 2,000 year old man.. He would be in no position to deal with Mab... Without the noose and the coin, Nic is just an ordinary mortal like Cassius.
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: peregrine on September 01, 2017, 03:29:37 AM ---While Nic can of course lie however he wants, does he ever say that the Grail is his goal, or just their target? Going after something target-adjacent needs no lying.
Also, I'm sure that Nic would indeed love to have the Grail. Not as much as other stuff, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want it. I'd be hard pressed to think of any sort of magical artifact he will just turn his nose up at, unless it has some inherent downsides. Probably doesn't want a pair of coins fighting it out in his psyche or whatever.
--- End quote ---
Nick say he wants a cup. I think it is clear enough.
afterNick use the grail as a shield to block Excalibur, It is clear Nick don't really want the artifact. The grail is good, but it is still disposable to him.
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Mira on September 01, 2017, 04:06:36 AM ---He might try to kill Harry that is true, but Nic would be a rapidly aging 2,000 year old man.. He would be in no position to deal with Mab... Without the noose and the coin, Nic is just an ordinary mortal like Cassius.
--- End quote ---
True, but Harry might still die. Saving a life is more important than punishing the evildoers. You might hurt Nick by taking the coin, but chances are good you'll suffer casualties as well. Following the code of the knights, not taking the coin should be the right choice.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on September 01, 2017, 04:06:36 AM ---He might try to kill Harry that is true, but Nic would be a rapidly aging 2,000 year old man.. He would be in no position to deal with Mab... Without the noose and the coin, Nic is just an ordinary mortal like Cassius.
--- End quote ---
As long as he can give the order to the genoskwa. The genoskwa wants to kill Harry so even if Nicodemus is just a human he will still do it. And Nicodemus will not age that fast the first few hours anyway.
And until the coin is safely put away Nicodemus can still summon it back.
DonBugen:
--- Quote from: peregrine ---So, what he's looking to do is break Mab's word without getting caught.
--- End quote ---
Not quite. Harry is looking to corner Nicodemus into breaking his word first so that Harry can act according to Mab's will without having broken Mab's word.
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 ---When Butters I caught spying the denarians, he become a hinderence to the operation. Nick orders Harry to end him, and with Butters status as a security risk, that order is valid.
Re-opening the NN pathway is different. Harry can always re-open another one. There is no risk to the operation so long as Nick truly does not intend treachery.
If Nick can order Harry to do anything at all, Nick probably would have order Harry to kill himself and be done with it.
--- End quote ---
Yup, absolutely spot-on. It's because Harry is commanded to aid Nicodemus in his attempt to recover the grail that obligates him to follow commands that are directly related to the success of their mission.
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 ---When did Mab state her intent and it is not her intent?
And you are wrong. Nick don't really want the grail. If it is there and it is a freeby, he'll take it of course, but he'll throw the grail away if he can get his hands on the knife, his presume true target.
If Mab say she wants the grail, it means she wants the grail. She might want something else along the grail and she may not tell you, but the grail remains her target.
That is the difference.
--- End quote ---
Absolutely true. There's another type of lie that Nicodemus could be partaking in: a lie of omission. He's trapped in a position in which it's in his best interest to divulge what he's looking for, but would never be so transparent. So instead of talking about the whole collection, he just talks about one piece. It's probably the most famous piece and also the least useful; Michael even notes that he's not quite sure how Nick could use it for evil. But it's the one he presents to everyone else. The fact that he ALSO has a goal of four other divine artifacts... just never comes up.
The funny thing is, his omission of his true target is exactly what allows Dresden to hide what he's really after. Because Nick expressed that everyone was welcome to any other items in the vault if they struck his fancy, and that his objective was a cup, that made the other four items up for grabs in Mab's eye.
As for Mab, the closest she ever came to expressing her true intention in plain words was in stating that she expected Dresden to be himself, and that she expected far superior treachery from him. Dresden has to figure out for himself exactly her intentions. 'Cause she's Fae and is allergic to speaking the straight truth.
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 ---Point 14 is indeed in contention. You say it is not compromise yet. In fact it is. In theory, Harry has not attack Nick or the genoskwa, but by his actions he has put Butters into a position of near absolute safety, which definitely will impede him from fulfilling Nicodemous's orders. Which is why I say that this argument would carry more weight if Butters actually die, one way or another. But no, Butters does not die. No matter what we say, even though it is still possible to kill Butters after he cross the fence, the fact of the matter is that the task is not done in the end. Nick orders to end Butters and Butters is not ended. If helping Butters before this can be swept under the rug with the word "honest incompotency", forzaring Butters across the fence is no longer "honest incompotency", it is either outright rebellion, or "true incompotency". Heck, the weak mortal doctor is right in front of you , no better than a turtle in a jar, and you can't even end him! The excuse of incompotency should has it's limits.
--- End quote ---
I will agree with you that the argument of incompetence is a weak one. Dresden is deceiving Gen and Nick while moving Butters into safety from everyone but himself. However, the fact does still stand that Harry's actions do not impede his ability to kill Butters, and Harry cannot truly be accused of betraying Nick until he actually does something which damages their endeavor.
I do see your point of Quid Pro Quo. If I understand you properly, you're stating that Dresden's pursuit of Butters could clearly be seen as attempting to sabotage his capture and a breach of contract. And while Harry's bashing of Binder's gents could be explained by bad luck and incompetence, his rushing Butters over to the Carpenters' yard really could not. I'm unsure if the fact that Nicodemus chose to allow this action in order to trap the sword has any weight in this situation. After all, my argument still stands when Harry accuses Nick of breaking Mab's agreement - if the agreement was broken at that point, during the chase, then Nick doesn't have to defend telling Gen to kill Harry. He can just say, "You betrayed me when you were pulling the doctor I ordered dead to safety. I was in my rights to kill you, Dresden."
I'll have to think about that one. Hm.
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 ---As for Murphy. Perhaps it is indeed a good idea for her to stay true to the code of the KoTC. She can do like what Michael did in the gate of blood, when Nick is trying to sacrifice dierdra without interference. Kill him and I'll smite you down. Yes, she can do that, and this is precisely her mistake.
But taking the coin and noose is definitely out of the question. Take that away, and Nick will get desperate. He might decide to cut his losses and take Harry's life as consolation prize first, and deal with Mab later.
--- End quote ---
Hoo boy. I'd love to see that battle.
--- Quote from: mira ---He might try to kill Harry that is true, but Nic would be a rapidly aging 2,000 year old man.. He would be in no position to deal with Mab... Without the noose and the coin, Nic is just an ordinary mortal like Cassius.
--- End quote ---
It was two years between Death Masks and Dead Beat, which took Snakeboy from being a decently young-looking chap to being Liverspots. Cassius is also considerably old. Nick might age rapidly, but I doubt he would age that rapidly as to affect the battle.
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