The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
Mr. Death:
DonBugen, I think we're just about at a point where there's not much left to argue over. Just a couple points I want to address:
--- Quote from: DonBugen on August 25, 2017, 05:09:58 PM ---One area in which Murph does go wrong, though, is that she then assumes that she has the right to dole them out to people who she thinks could use them best. I stand by what Michael says at the end of Skin Game: Despite Harry’s clear inclination he thought Murphy could wield a sword, he never actually did call her to be a knight, and she appointed herself despite the fact that she knew that she wasn’t in the right place and mindset to wield one.
--- End quote ---
I would say it's not so much she thinks she has the right as she feels she has the responsibility to look after and hand out the Swords. Someone needs to look after them until the time is right; Harry was that person, then he got killed and implicitly entrusted them to Murphy. She probably didn't want them any more than Harry did, but now that she has them, she's going to do the job to the best of her ability and guided by her own judgment -- just like Harry did.
And I'd say the right mindset to be custodian and to wield one don't necessarily need to be the same. Harry self-admitted for years that he's the wrong person to wield a Sword, but was apparently the best choice to be custodian.
--- Quote ---I don’t see the mantle as being more dangerous to Harry than having Lash’s coin. Both were immensely tempting magical forces, for which there just weren’t many examples of people withstanding the temptation of it. Both influenced Harry to act uncharacteristically angry and violent. There are some differences, of course – the mantle makes Harry more of a testosterone junkie than Lash did, but I think that Lash’s ability to reason with Harry and argue her point makes the danger of Dresden falling about equal in both. The difference between the two is that Harry keeps the coin hidden from almost everybody; Michael is the only one of his close friends who knows that he has it. And Michael is OK with Harry holding a sword. Everyone, though, knows that Harry is Winter Knight, and now suddenly people don’t trust him and Karrin feels she has to strip Harry of the sword.
--- End quote ---
There's one fundamental difference between Lash and the Mantle. Lash is there because Harry did not accept the coin's bargain; the Mantle is there because he did accept Mab's. There's a level of acceptance in the Mantle that wasn't present for Lash -- he's already said the big Yes, which I'd say makes him more vulnerable to it.
--- Quote ---I don't know. That's where he is right now, sure. But I can't help thinking that he's being prepared in much the same way that Butters was. I've re-read Dresden's fight with Hannah several times, and it's impossible not to notice that Harry does exactly the role of a Knight here: he confronts her, offers her a choice, tries as hard as he can to help her step away -all to GREAT personal risk- and then defeats her when he had no other choice. That empathy could, over time, become a seed that brings him to recognize and want to help others trapped.
--- End quote ---
Fair, I hadn't thought of it in that terms. But Hannah appealed to Harry personally in ways that, say, Nicodemus did not. Harry might be willing to save a "new" Denarian that he thinks was tricked, but Michael is willing to save Nicodemus.
Mira -- you're not saying anything new. In fact, you're still saying things that are clearly factually false from the citations that I and others have made to the text of the books.
Again: Do you intend to address those posts by myself and KurtinStGeorge, or do you intend to keep making unfounded assertions that have been shown to be false?
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on August 25, 2017, 03:23:56 PM ---Harry's own behavior matters and influences how Murphy approaches things. She had to be inflexible there -- putting it as you say, Harry would've been able to argue. ("You told me where the swords were hidden and I took them when you disappeared," "Well, I'm back now, I say give them back.") She wasn't looking for an argument. She doesn't have to tell him everything she's thinking and feeling -- she has a goal in the conversation, and she's acting toward that goal.
There's a lot going on in that conversation beyond just the Swords and Bob. Murphy is, in her own way, testing Dresden. She's dealt with things that looked and sounded like Dresden before, and this could be even worse than an imposter -- the actual Dresden on Mab's leash. She knows Dresden about as well as anyone in Chicago can, so she pokes him and sees how he reacts.
By the end of the conversation, I think she's convinced that he is still Harry Dresden -- but she can also see that he's in a very dark, rough place at the moment. You can even see where the shift happens -- after he punches the wall then sags in disgust at himself, she's suddenly very understanding and tender. I think, in that moment, she realizes what Harry could have done, what he very nearly did -- but that he didn't.
When you think about it, confronting the Winter Knight alone, unarmed, when you're like half his size? That's either gutsy as hell or very trusting that he's not actually going to hurt you.
Hey, in God, all booze is equal.
I imagine for Harry, it's also hard to remain truly faithless when he's literally spoken personally to an Angel on several occasions.
As for Harry as a wielder... in the right circumstances, maybe. I don't think he's cut out for a permanent position, though. I don't see him wanting to save the Denarians any more than Murphy is. Maybe even a little less willing.
Mira, do you intend to respond to my or KurtinStGeorge's posts? We both asked you some questions, and I think we'd both like them answered.
--- End quote ---
I won't say whether or not Murphy is wrong in the way she handle the holy swords during CD and SG, but I do want to say that Murphy is acting completely herself.
Like it or not, Murphy is trained as a cop. Though she is no longer one, the training certainly sticks.
Here is Harry, or at least someone like him, who proclaims he just come back from the dead, if you can believed such a thing.
The guy just burgled Butters's home. Taken away Bob and hurting Andy in the process. The guy has been acting abnormally all over the place i.e: excessive violence and looking at girls as if they were prey.
Sure, let's just return the holy artifacts to him. Are you kidding me!?
Michael or Forthill, had one of them been the custodian, may decide to do just that, though I doubt it. But Murphy with her cop training definitely wouldn't. If she ddid that, I'll start looking for alien pods.
Right or wrong, at least Murphy is honest and sincere. When it is about the holy swords, there isn't really much a mortal can do aside from doing your best in both judgement and intent, and allow TWG to handle the rest.
In Murphy's case, she done just that. She makes the best judgement she could and acted true to herself. And TWG does not let her down. Despite her mistakes, ammoracchius is there when Michael needs it and fid is broken and remade into something more suited for the newly minted Sir. Butters.
If you ask me, Murphy is definitely a failure as a KoTC. When she try to wield fid as a knight, she bungles it up spectacularly. However, as a sword custodian, which by the way is what Harry ask her to become, she performs admirably, even her failure by breaking fid turns out as a blessing in the end. She was not meant to wield the holy sword. She was meant to become the medium to pass on the sword to the right person just by being true to herself.
The most important part is this. Is there actually another option for a custodian aside for Murphy during Harry's abcense?
Michael definitely don't want it, and I assume forthill don't want it either. Thomas? a whampire? Or are we going to let Molly the rag lady held on to the swords?
Like it or not, Murphy is the custodian when Harry come back in CD. As the custodian it is her decision when and where and to whom the swords are to be deployed. Her decisions can be wrong, trying to chop off Nick's head for example, but it is still her right to decide.
raidem:
I do think Murphy was a correct, active, and true knight during changes in showdowns at chichen itza. She only wanted it for temporary time though. And she did screw up in skin knight but it was out of love for Harry and fear for his life that she was pushed into making a compromising choice.
Mira:
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on August 25, 2017, 08:22:06 AM ---Allow me to explain what I meant in more detail. Murphy's attitude was rather inflexible. She appeared to have no doubts. She didn't say that she had concerns that needed to be assuaged or that the matter of the swords might be explored at a future time. Murphy could have even told Harry that he had told her where the swords were hidden, she had taken possession of them when Harry disappeared, and until she received a sign someone else was meant to hold them, she would assume she was meant to. Isn't this what you suggest she may have been thinking? Also, it's not a question of how events eventually played out, it's how Murphy handled the situation. A person can make the right move, but do so for the wrong reasons or perhaps I should say, do so in an offensive or capricious way.
--- End quote ---
There is also no evidence that the Swords wouldn't have been fine where they were at, unless Thomas sold the boat or something, but I think he also knew where the Swords were.. After all Fid stayed in Harry's umbrella stand in plain sight for a number of years before he found a wielder.. It was untouched even when a horde of zombies trooped though his apartment in Dead Beat... Murphy didn't get a message from on high to retrieve the Swords, as said a couple of times, she took it upon herself to get them... I am sure she meant well.. But..
--- Quote ---I do think Murphy was a correct, active, and true knight during changes in showdowns at chichen itza. She only wanted it for temporary time though. And she did screw up in skin knight but it was out of love for Harry and fear for his life that she was pushed into making a compromising choice.
--- End quote ---
Yes, on C.I... Point though her motives were sound in Skin Game, even understandable, they are not an excuse because she knew the rules governing the use of the Swords, made a big deal out of it to Harry, and then violated them..
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: raidem on August 26, 2017, 03:17:14 PM ---I do think Murphy was a correct, active, and true knight during changes in showdowns at chichen itza. She only wanted it for temporary time though. And she did screw up in skin knight but it was out of love for Harry and fear for his life that she was pushed into making a compromising choice.
--- End quote ---
I thought about that as well. But considering further, I discount her performance during book 12. Chopping up vampires is not a KoTC's main job, saving mortals from fallen is. Which is probably why Murphy held out from wielding fid for so long. She knew she is not cut out for it, and when she was finally cornered to wield the holy sword for it's main purpose, she fails.
Wielding a sword is one thing, becoming a KotC is another thing entirely. I strongly suspect Harry refuse to become a KoTC for the same reason. There just isn't much mercy in Harry and Murphy for the likes of Nicodemous, which for me is a completely understandable point of view, but sadly such a way of thinking does not agree with the crede of the KoTC.
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