The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
Kindler:
Murphy wasn't just concerned about Dresden in Cold Days, she was pissed. Her first real words to Harry are "You don't call, you don't write..." She felt glad to see him, but still feels betrayed, with pretty good reason. After she goes along to Chichen Itza with Harry and Pals, they make a date, and she promptly finds his murder scene. Immediately thereafter, she's thrust into a conflict with supernatural predators, and her until-then dependable companion and invaluable resource in fighting monsters is gone. She's forced to make tough decisions for a year, while desperately holding on to the slim hope that Harry isn't even dead.
Then Harry comes back as (what she thinks is) a ghost, and she's blatantly crushed. She spends most of Ghost Story in denial. Then his ghost appears to move on, from Mort's ending conversation, and she's crushed all over again.
Then Cold Days kicks off, and Harry is basically like "Surprise! I've been alive for like six to eight months or so," but Harry doesn't pick up a phone and call her, she finds him. She then spends the next, what, fifteen, twenty hours with him? The main plot of Cold Days starts pretty much at 12:01 Halloween morning, and ends just before dawn on November 1st. We're talking about thirty hours, total.
I think it's extremely unfair to expect Murphy to deal with the fact that the guy she has feelings for and might even love has pretty much come back from the dead, had been back from the dead for quite a while, and is clearly under the influence of the Winter Knight's Mantle, all in a matter of a little over a day.
She's perfectly within her rights to question Harry's mental health. In her shoes, wouldn't you think that maybe some of this is a little too good to be true? It's essentially a granted wish, or an answered prayer, far, far later than you would have hoped.
Then a year passes, and Skin Game starts up. Butters explains his perspective, that Harry's return was a huge Hope Spot for everyone in Chicago, only for Dresden to disappear back to Demonreach rather than be the typical Snark Knight they'd come to expect and kick the Fomor out of the city. I get the sense that Butters didn't go out to Demonreach all that often, if at all, so he had no idea what Harry was doing.
Murphy, meanwhile, signs up pretty much right away. She's just surprised that Harry wants her to come. She backs his plan pretty much without reservation. When Dresden asks if she's going to bring the swords because these are the guys they're pretty much made to fight, her response isn't "No, I don't trust you," it's along the lines of "I've wielded one for real, and I get the feeling that this isn't their fight." She's not speaking from mistrust, she's speaking from experience.
She's right, by the way; if she had heeded her own instincts, the sword would never have been broken.
Instead, she decides to involve the sword when they see the Genoskwa. Again, I don't see this as mistrust at all. This is her grabbing something because she sees something that can physically outmatch her and was able to toss Mantled Harry around like a paper doll, the same guy who she saw literally smash thousands of vampires with a word a couple years before.
The bone of contention seems to be whether or not she withheld the fact that the rocket launcher was actually the sword from Harry was because she didn't trust him or because she knew Nic might be listening in. I don't think either one need be true, and I'm not sure why it's even evidence of mistrust.
There's no practical reason to tell Harry. All telling him would do is give him the opportunity to let slip that she has it with her. She's able to hold back its involvement as a sucker punch—which is not a good idea, mostly because I don't think that's how the swords are supposed to be used, but it doesn't say anything about her opinion of Harry or their relationship. Messing up isn't demonstrative of lack of trust.
Even if she's not considering practicality, she doesn't tell Harry.
So what? I don't understand why that's a problem. Did Harry tell her (or even the reader) about the seventy-seven sigils he carved onto his staff? He knows she has a weapon that might make the Genoskwa think twice. Isn't that enough?
I just don't think Murphy not cheerleading Harry in every scene demonstrates lack of trust or a change in character. She's never been that way before, so why would she be now?
Concerning keeping the Swords, well, she has no reason to give them to Harry during Cold Days. He's clearly not in his right mind, and they only come up within ten minutes of them having their first real conversation in a couple of years. Then, after the book, Harry retreats to Demonreach. What, she's supposed to hand two of the most powerful weapons for Good and Nice Things to a hermit, where they can't do anyone any good at all, while Chicago is still essentially under siege? It seems pretty clear to me that she's holding on to them so that they might be of use in an emergency, while Dresden is perfectly capable of burning most things to a cinder, along with the car the guy's driving and the city block around him. He doesn't need the option, but she, and the people of Chicago, might.
I don't think it's an accident that Harry getting the sword (of Love, funnily enough) happens right after he decides to be a dad, and rejoin society.
As for Butters, I don't think his lack of faith is unfounded. He gives pretty good reasons for not trusting Harry completely. And when he realizes how dumb he was, his reaction is almost verbatim, "I'm an idiot." Personally, I think he took to espionage like a giraffe to table tennis, and was trying too hard to be Batman, who famously trusts nobody ('cept Alfred and Dick). Someone I know found it infuriating that Butters's lack of faith was rewarded with a sword, but my interpretation is that broken faith broke the sword of faith, then restored faith restored the sword of faith.
But it's Murphy who pays the price for Butters's mistrust. Not that she doesn't make mistakes, but that the situation was created mostly by a friend who didn't have enough faith. Butters didn't even trust Murphy, the woman he'd fought alongside for the past year or two, to keep a level head about Dresden and the fight. He gets better, but he's not the one who pays for his mistakes, aside from guilt.
Anyway, I've yet to see any evidence that shows Murphy acting inconsistent with her character, or seriously distrusting Harry, aside from twenty hours during which she has every reason to doubt Harry, but still drives a freaking motorcycle onto a lake when he asks her to.
If anything, I think Murphy is doubting herself.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 17, 2017, 04:01:14 PM ---Indeed he does, for a number of years Bob was the only being he could confide in.
Had she? I am not so sure, she acted like it, but her actions said she hadn't. As I said not once did she ask Harry how his head was feeling, I find it hard to believe she didn't know about his headaches, Butters did as early as Turn Coat. I find it hard to believe she didn't ask him about his earring.. Nor did she toss Harry a bone about his efforts to get his mantle under control, not one word about him doing the best he can.. No, I don't think she had it together at all, it just appeared that she did.. Consider, Butters lost it with Harry because the year had been a horrible one against the Fomor, I think it had to be at least as bad for Murphy, plus the fact that she felt responsible for her foot soldiers.
--- End quote ---
Wait, so the reason you think she doesnt trust him is that she Didnt interrogate about his fashion or his health conditions? Meanwhile she gives a fairly eloquent speech trying to convince Butters that he should trust Harry? Im not sure what you think trust should look like, at this point.
DonBugen:
--- Quote ---Personally, I think he took to espionage like a giraffe to table tennis,
--- End quote ---
You, sir, have made my day.
--- Quote --- Someone I know found it infuriating that Butters's lack of faith was rewarded with a sword, but my interpretation is that broken faith broke the sword of faith, then restored faith restored the sword of faith.
--- End quote ---
Sometimes, I suspect that Knights are chosen not because they already are good people, but that they have the potential to be good people. Sanya was a has-been Denarian trying to find himself. Shiro came to know TWG by accident, looking for Elvis. Susan was a conflicted half-vampire. Murph is Murph. Butters is, as you state, very conflicted before he makes his self-sacrificial act of faith.
I feel that they are not only chosen for the good that they can do, but also so that they can recognize and choose to grow in ways that they couldn’t before. We’re all looking forward to Mirror Mirror and seeing what alternate-future Dresden will be. I’m thinking of Mirror Mirror and wondering if we’ll get a chance to see a Murphy who accepted Fidelacchius. She was given a choice as well and decided against taking up the Sword. I wonder who she would be now if she had chosen differently.
I also wonder who Michael was before he took up the Sword how long ago.
Mira:
--- Quote ---One: I want to address a few of the things that you said about who should and should not have possession of the swords. Much of the responses that you’ve given state that Dresden shouldn’t be the custodian of the swords because a sword wielded for the wrong reasons is incredibly fragile. The one thing, though, is that after Grave Peril, Dresden has never, never, NEVER had any inclination to wield a Sword. He’s very vocally against it. When he talks about the Knights, it’s not uncommon for him to drop in lines such as “And that’s why I will never be a knight.” Even when his daughter is almost certainly going to die and he crosses every line in Changes, he doesn’t pick up the sword. He gives them to others who he thinks would best use them.
--- End quote ---
And as pointed out by Michael he has been very good in his selection of Knights.
--- Quote ---Murphy wasn't just concerned about Dresden in Cold Days, she was pissed. Her first real words to Harry are "You don't call, you don't write..." She felt glad to see him, but still feels betrayed, with pretty good reason. After she goes along to Chichen Itza with Harry and Pals, they make a date, and she promptly finds his murder scene. Immediately thereafter, she's thrust into a conflict with supernatural predators, and her until-then dependable companion and invaluable resource in fighting monsters is gone. She's forced to make tough decisions for a year, while desperately holding on to the slim hope that Harry isn't even dead.
--- End quote ---
No, truth is he couldn't he had been mostly dead for half of that year and in rehab for the rest... She also had good reason to believe he was dead in Ghost Story, so why weren't her first words to Harry, "HARRY! YOU'RE ALIVE! I thought you were dead, what happened?" But no, about her feeling betrayed because he didn't call or write....
--- Quote ---Murphy, meanwhile, signs up pretty much right away. She's just surprised that Harry wants her to come. She backs his plan pretty much without reservation. When Dresden asks if she's going to bring the swords because these are the guys they're pretty much made to fight, her response isn't "No, I don't trust you," it's along the lines of "I've wielded one for real, and I get the feeling that this isn't their fight." She's not speaking from mistrust, she's speaking from experience.
She's right, by the way; if she had heeded her own instincts, the sword would never have been broken.
Instead, she decides to involve the sword when they see the Genoskwa. Again, I don't see this as mistrust at all. This is her grabbing something because she sees something that can physically outmatch her and was able to toss Mantled Harry around like a paper doll, the same guy who she saw literally smash thousands of vampires with a word a couple years before.
--- End quote ---
Point here is, she knows she shouldn't wield one, her instincts are right... But she brings it anyway... Does she even ask Harry's opinion on whether or not that was a good idea considering? No... Did she trust that he might agree with her? No.. Instead she hides it like a fat lady hiding a candy wrapper thinking no one would notice.. For all her smarts, she displayed her ignorance because she should have known that Nick was listening in and would set her up.. Harry realized it the minute she pulled the Sword out that he didn't know she had with her, but it was too late then..
--- Quote ---I just don't think Murphy not cheerleading Harry in every scene demonstrates lack of trust or a change in character. She's never been that way before, so why would she be now?
--- End quote ---
Not cheerleader, but supportive... If you have a alcoholic that has stayed off the booze for a year, do you berate him because he went off to kick the habit? Or do you say something to the effect that he looks great or keep up the good work you are there for him? That's what friends do...
--- Quote ---Anyway, I've yet to see any evidence that shows Murphy acting inconsistent with her character, or seriously distrusting Harry, aside from twenty hours during which she has every reason to doubt Harry, but still drives a freaking motorcycle onto a lake when he asks her to.
--- End quote ---
Evidence? The fact that she keeps reminding him he could turn into a monster... That means she thinks he could still turn into a monster... No, my friend she doesn't completely trust that he won't.
--- Quote ---Wait, so the reason you think she doesnt trust him is that she Didnt interrogate about his fashion or his health conditions? Meanwhile she gives a fairly eloquent speech trying to convince Butters that he should trust Harry? Im not sure what you think trust should look like, at this point.
--- End quote ---
In a sense, yes... Why because she doesn't care to get to the bottom of why he was gone, all she can do is tell him how he has let his friends down... So yeah, eloquent to Butters at that moment, but what about the year that had passed? Do you think Butters would have come to mistrust Harry in a vacuum? She may not have added to it, but I bet she didn't disabuse him of that notion either.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 17, 2017, 07:49:11 PM ---In a sense, yes... Why because she doesn't care to get to the bottom of why he was gone, all she can do is tell him how he has let his friends down...
--- End quote ---
You seem to be projecting motivation there. He appeard to lay out everything out to murphy in the off-screen moments prior to SG Ch 2. You are assuming that a) harry didnt mention Mabs interference, b) that she didnt ask, and c) that IF she didnt ask it was from a lack of Caring about him rather than trusting him to have his secrets (which is precisely what she was doing the entire book).
--- Quote ---So yeah, eloquent to Butters at that moment, but what about the year that had passed? Do you think Butters would have come to mistrust Harry in a vacuum? She may not have added to it, but I bet she didn't disabuse him of that notion either.
--- End quote ---
You mean during the year that Mab had kept him prisoner and been actively modifying all communications specifically to instill Mistrust in his allies (like Butters). Or do you mean when she disabused him of it On Stage in SG??
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