The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Many Questions on Proven Guilty

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jonas:

--- Quote from: Rasins on August 02, 2017, 02:51:51 PM ---Jonas - I don't think so.  I don't know that Mab knew yet what Molly's purpose was going to be, let alone a queen.  But we do know that Mab eventually thought that Molly would be a better fit in Summer.

--- End quote ---
Depends on why you think she ended up in AT really? But if Lea is dropping cluebats all over the place about wanting Molly, one thinks her boss might know why if nothing else. Purely from that, Mab wanted potential candidates for both summer and winter to be groomed. She just assumed wrongly. And i'd point out as she 'thought' her daughter would be best suited to replace her other daughter,probably came from a more personal and emotional reaction than logical reasoning. The Molly starborn theory would explain any interest directly but,

Alternatively, using what I call the Magicians Info Dump(which is just a reference to the fact it's a misdirection, he'll talk about one bit of magic and it will actually explain pieces of another form or connection elsewhere) DB proves if one is taken out of commission or intentionally withheld from your duty a proxy can/must be sent.
There were two potential proxies in PG. Mab withheld the WK from his duty, if a legitimate duty arose she would have had to send a proxy or providing dereliction of duty allowed the originator of WQ to act in the imbalance, MW. We know it's precisely in an imbalance they can act. So perhaps Mab had little to do with it herself at first.
But then they returned to AT with her, why? Well, when we get there Mab's unknowingly hidden on ice. But if she had at some point completed her icy tomb to help exercise N from lea, and prevent influence in herself, She needed a proxy queen she could trust at worst or a Lady sub at best. Either way someone had to shoulder the proverbial world while atlas stepped away so... I believe Molly has already been Winter Queen.

Rasins:
Jonas,

Are you saying that when Molly was take to AT in DB, she was forced into playing the part of a queen?  Like a foreshadowing of her taking on the Lady's reigns?

jonas:

--- Quote from: Rasins on August 03, 2017, 02:09:27 PM ---Jonas,

Are you saying that when Molly was take to AT in DB, she was forced into playing the part of a queen?  Like a foreshadowing of her taking on the Lady's reigns?

--- End quote ---
Entirely possible, if you mean PG, not DB ;)
I try to keep idea's pared down to one topic/theory at a time, but a lot of my theories start to interconnect and be dependent on one another. I find it becomes more palatable that way. Here is one that backs it though, i'll try to point out assumptions made from other idea's.

The BC connections/hidden baddie basically gives Molly the idea to use magic to cause fear. Using the forces of creation to do so. The direct result from the 'good guys' side is to kidnap and feed upon said person, intentions be damned that's what they did. They ate pieces of her life force, digging into her soul a bit like happened to her brother.
Directly after that we get the knowing look from Scarecrow(Which iirc the Loup gives Harry too? Idk, somebody shares that look/description) followed by a speech saying more or less he's from beyond human memory... He should be in oblivion!?
*I love the whole batman, sleepy hallow thing going on in PG btw

So fast forward to some future events, Lea is training Molly how to use fear as a weapon without violating Council Laws, using grey area's that don't take away choice. Later on an outsider called Fearbringer in truth is born into the world and Molly ends up WL in the same book.
Those events are directly related, despite what Mab might 'think', Lea was always training Molly into the Winter side. It's all she knows and the 'mirror' that drew in the WL mantle. Something explained in a 'slight of hand' in PG on how spirits find beacons in the mortal world to come through. This is how the Ladies mantles find hosts and how N and company find things to influence.

Tangent:N gets influence into mortals but mortals change so it's not such a threat, but Wizards can also birth things into their thoughts, literally becoming more of such a thing by using their magic that way. So if their using magic that doesn't align with reality, that makes them more of a mirror for an outside presence then a slow possession takes grip. Where in the end it's not so much they took control, as they became them in truth. Hence Warlocks are born, and Wardens who trap outsiders get repurposed with killing deranged magic users. They're one and the same thing. They just didn't get born with all their horrible power at start (this is also why I say Naagloshi and those who walk the path of a Naagloshi are the same thing).

Now, where was I... Ok, so Molly was a beacon for fearbringer but the Fetches ate the Nfection out of her, this is why fearbringers functionality is based on the scarecrows body type. He's an amalgamation of all the fear Mollys identity/soul caused. He gets a cloth shroud because Molly's been leaving Harry's death shroud, that which he was last seen wearing before death, at the scenes of her fear inspiring deaths. SHE'S molding how fearbringer is shaped.
She's the new version of whom made the Mantle of Mab, the starborn of THAT star. Which is not a common idea behind starborn, I know) But what if these millions of starborn are just incarnations of specific stars and the reason why none of them do as much as Dresden is the same reason Mortals aren't as susceptible to N, they don't have the power to birth much of their original mold, for lack of a better word, into the world. Instead of all these mantles being simply broken down graces, they are fragmented portions of the same cosmic identity. Leading to characters/ immortal incarnations with very similar stories and abilities. GK domain is moon, stars farther, outside. All the Greco-Roman gods were planets in our system, so not so much 'star'born as 'celestial body born'?
So Mab's origin is as Fearbringer, Molly's the newest incarnation. That they were trying to use to displace Mab's power and they wanted to become Mab's power(which again, Mab could even thinkMolly's more suited to Summer while knowingly prepping her winter, to show yet another foil)

Oh yea, ok so. When PG was going down Molly was already exhibiting traits of being a Winter Queen. I feel their overall goal was to corrupt not only a potential bearer of WL or Q, but to try to bogart that power like the LoONs did and influence how the WQ power was distributed in reality. That the consciousness the power of the entire courts was separated from on the stone table would again have hold. FB has the same 'power' as Mab but is 'deeper' in a necromantic sense. Older.
Mab's precise reasoning depends on the order of events at AT, but I see it close to this. Mab on the other hand may have known she would be the most precise reflection of WQ besides the Lady so had to bind her with the fetches before she could leave, leaving an Nfected mortal WQ or L behind(depends on where the Mauve situation was in linear time, hard to say). Weakened, unconscious, being fed upon, even if N managed to take root there wouldn't be any power to act. So Mab was covering her rear and siphoning off Nfection of a major player in the future of the power behind the Queens.

Leaving off a whole other tangential theory on Who the courts were made from, what they represent in the DF, their previous role in reality, ect. It would take a lot of space and expo. I will say, in SK the color of horse that the Lady/Queens were on was the start of that.

Questions?

Kindler:
In my opinion, I think that, if anyone has foreknowledge into the events of Proven Guilty, it's the Gatekeeper (obviously). I think the Gatekeeper clued Harry in to increase the odds that Molly's life would be saved, that she would become his apprentice, and would eventually succeed Maeve. Not that he knew precisely that all of that would happen, more that he sensed she'd be important, and that he saw probabilities, and acted accordingly. I think Bob gave the infodump on foresight for specifically this reason; the Gatekeeper was playing a much longer game, against the Outsiders, and acted with support of the Winter Court, with which he is demonstrably on decent, if not excellent, terms.

Proven Guilty doesn't take place in a vacuum, and I think the events of the previous book really played into things. I think the Gatekeeper saw some of the future possibilities change when Harry didn't die as was fated in Dead Beat, after things quieted down from the Red Court attacks. Harry became a Warden, struck up a good friendship with Ramirez and Luccio, Butters wasn't outright murdered by Grevane (and subsequently learns to deal with his fear a bit, starting his journey to becoming a Knight), the Erlking (who becomes important again in Changes and Cold Days, arguably the two most critically important books to the over-arching storyline) basically high-fives Dresden for resurrecting Sue, Luccio switches bodies, Morgan develops a grudging almost-not-quite-respect for Harry (which matters in Proven Guilty, at the ending trial), Mavra ends up with the Word of Kemmler, Grevane and Corpsetaker die, Cowl fails the Darkhallow, Thomas is disturbed enough by the events of the book to take night classes and start up his hair salon, and, probably most important, Murphy's flower garden gets messed up (sarcasm).

It's even possible that, if Harry had died, Molly might not have started practicing with her magic—her example and stated influence dying an early, undignified death on the street might have turned her off, though that's really, really stretching things.

The point is that all of these major, major events, involving really, really important players in the Grand Scheme only happen because Harry isn't killed in the first hundred pages of Dead Beat, which, if Gard is to be believed, was supposed to happen. There's no way I can see that the Gatekeeper, who seems to have an oddly acute sense of the future, didn't feel some kind of upheaval in possible futures with all of the changes that took place over the course of a day or two.

I think he felt it, and acted as best he could to steer Molly back onto the right track, because he sensed she'd be important, and he saw that she'd just be tried and executed without Harry's involvement.

As for Mab,  Winter has had interest in Molly for years at that point. Aside from her own considerable talents, influence over Molly provides influence over Michael, (or, and this is a serious, insanely wild guess, Amanda, who is my candidate to wield Amoracchius next).

I think that Mab saw an opportunity and took it, sending the Fetches to literally Fetch her, in order to give her incipient Knight a Fairy Tale Quest (during which he learns about the attack on Arctis Tor), and save Molly's life.

I think she suspected that Summer was the infected Court, which is why she wanted to save Molly—she already had Sarissa as a backup for Maeve—and why she was posturing on the Summer border. I think she might have actually been protecting the White Council from Summer, preventing them from joining in with the Reds.

She only knew that Lea was infected at this point. I think she figured out that Maeve was infected from the attack on Arctis Tor, which happened to be right when she had sent her main force away.

Remember, it wasn't Mab that called back Winter's forces, but pouring Summer fire into the Well. I do think that Mab intended that to happen once she realized that Maeve was Infected, but also wanted to see how Summer would react to Winter's sudden withdrawal; if they turned on the White Council, she'd know, and her forces were still close enough to turn around if she needed them to.

'Course, all of this could be just plain ol' bloviating.

I'm not sure whether that was actually Mab encased in ice or just a projection of her, watching things unfold. If it was her, she might have done it as a measure to prevent infection. I still have no idea how Nemesis is spread; the athame is implicated as the vector of transmission, but is it just by touch, prolonged exposure, or what?

As for who fixed Little Chicago, I have no clue. The Gatekeeper would be pretty cool.

Zaphodess:
Eb on Rashid's role:

--- Quote ---Likely he knows already. Knew already. Maybe even pointed you in a direction that would show you more. Assuming he wasn't simply using you to poke a hornet's nest and see what flew up.
--- End quote ---

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