The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
The most frightening Denarian yet?
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--- Quote from: jonas on August 10, 2017, 12:41:15 PM ---Define the ability to choose to resist the hunger vs blood slave then? What your saying there amounts to, they're more bat than human. Purely by what you said, Susan wouldn't have had anything left to choose from after one feeding. Maybe you got the 'in line with what's shown to the viewer from perspective', but is it really what's shown canonically? You want talk about soul gazes and people who do or don't have one, Harry avoids hades for fear of one, despite the many claims Mab would have no soul(certainly she is all Sidhe) but at the same time Harry as never met her eye's, and again has intentionally looked away when she challenged him to do so. The Reds and their hypno eyes more imply whatever they have is wolf to our deer, we get caught in the headlights. So it doesn't always get a cut and dry answer.
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Wildly different things. One is a mortal being "Pushed" to Sacrifice their Soul, the other is a former-mortal creature that has degraded as their nature dicated. I get that you see the Blood Slave Madness as big enough shift to require a Free Will Choice, but I dont think so at all; it's not a Change of nature, it's just surrendering to said Nature. It's no different than if Mab went too far in her Purpose and triggered the Titania Failsafe, it's not because she became Different, it's just that what she already was went too far.
--- Quote ---But, lets bring it back around to how the nobles of the court had to continue to fight the hunger not to devolve into mindless beings, because you can throw out counter points all day, if you can't address these specific discontinuities your not really addressing my issues here. That's not really an animal, that's certainly not set in stone behavior. fyi, the Whites prove you can become something else or something more and not stop being mortal. Why did the court have to be whipped out obliquely by Dresden even though the KotC sponsers had genuine beef with them? Free will issues.How so? Because he has a bigger will and a direct access to the core of their being? and yet his daughter plots to overthrow him... don't mistake a compulsion for a lack of will. You can do pretty much the same thing and worse to any human with the right connects.
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See above, it's not a fundamental Free Will Change for a monster that craves Blood to continue to crave Blood to the exclusion of everything else; there's nothing in the Rampire definition that requires them to be in full mental control of themselves. I dont see that as a Shift so much as the natural (arguably inevitable) conclusion of the Rampire transformation.
In general, I see Wampires as very similar to half-Ramps, while full Ramps have more in common with Blampires, based purely on the Souled half-something definition versus the fully transformed Ex-Mortal.
jonas:
--- Quote --- It's no different than if Mab went too far in her Purpose and triggered the Titania Failsafe, it's not because she became Different, it's just that what she already was went too far.
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I'll get back to the rest of that post later... but that left me sputtering in shock. Mab's ready made built in to know she logically can't go too far without invoking Titania's doomsday device. If she were the scorpion... the scorpion didn't wait or anything really, it just did what it does. So Mab would have already just tipped the scales and got drug into oblivion if that was her nature. The thing that changed was the fox, it gave the scorpion an opening despite it's knowing better. So she can't just 'go too far' without a precise change somewhere in that balancing act of the connected courts. And the metaphor to the WC or RC is the consciousness and the demon which are also connected can't just change the dynamic of said balance without farther change, change in any creature implies choice. Reds already killed, if there were no farther changes then they'd all be as Susan, and never adapt into a more comfortable life with it. At the very least they keep what remains and must grip it tight to prevent the slow spiral into being just what they look like on the outside. Tangent over, I think lol.
Now where were we..
--- Quote ---See above, it's not a fundamental Free Will Change for a monster that craves Blood to continue to crave Blood to the exclusion of everything else; there's nothing in the Rampire definition that requires them to be in full mental control of themselves. I dont see that as a Shift so much as the natural (arguably inevitable) conclusion of the Rampire transformation.
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See above for part of that. But again, that would say the 'being' known as the Red King basically resisted what he really was for over 3k years. Resisting what you already are by our 'slow decay to natural state' theorem implies he made a conscious decision to do so for all that time.
Wamps let something in, Ramps become something in body and Blamps are replaced entirely is how it looks to me.
*that becomes more right to me thinking about it, Ramps are a transmogrification. Like Mortal magic they just become more and more that thing as time goes by and they fail to resist.... Makes me wonder if the 7 courts aren't based on breaking the seven laws ??? Mmmm.
Zaphodess:
--- Quote from: jonas on August 10, 2017, 12:41:15 PM ---How so? Because he has a bigger will and a direct access to the core of their being? and yet his daughter plots to overthrow him... don't mistake a compulsion for a lack of will. You can do pretty much the same thing and worse to any human with the right connects.
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Well, exactly like that. The compulsion is relevant because it's built into their nature. Not having free will doesn't mean that you can't have desires and thoughts, it means the Red King can set the law and force the Ramps to act according to his will. Because he is their progenitor imo. They can't not obey. His daughter has to plot really carefully to overthrow him. The compulsion seems to come from the blood connection, meaning that the Rampires higher up in the family tree are automatically more powerful and can compel their "children". We've seen hints of this as far back as GP, where Bianca controls her household of freshly made Vampires.
The same as Molly not being able to act against Winter Law or a direct command from Mab.
Also consider Bob, he has no free will so he can't act against his nature. Doesn't mean he can't try to strike deals with Harry or not like a particular command. But he can't disobey a direct command from whoever possesses him atm.
jonas:
--- Quote ---Well, exactly like that. The compulsion is relevant because it's built into their nature
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Looking at how Odin describes it, they are literally a part of the kings power broken down through his offspring. It's a thaumaturgical connection, nothing more. They literally felt his pain, not just his will.
--- Quote ---The same as Molly not being able to act against Winter Law or a direct command from Mab.
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*looks obliquely* now your just theorizing. On something disputed already btw(human or fae? no soul no choice?) we're still waiting on this one guy.
--- Quote ---Also consider Bob, he has no free will so he can't act against his nature. Doesn't mean he can't try to strike deals with Harry or not like a particular command. But he can't disobey a direct command from whoever possesses him atm.
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Bob's a full denizen of the mortal realm with his own mortal body? Extraneous details, not really sure what this is supposed to prove.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: jonas on August 10, 2017, 02:36:08 PM ---I'll get back to the rest of that post later... but that left me sputtering in shock. Mab's ready made built in to know she logically can't go too far without invoking Titania's doomsday device. If she were the scorpion... the scorpion didn't wait or anything really, it just did what it does. So Mab would have already just tipped the scales and got drug into oblivion if that was her nature. The thing that changed was the fox, it gave the scorpion an opening despite it's knowing better. So she can't just 'go too far' without a precise change somewhere in that balancing act of the connected courts.
And the metaphor to the WC or RC is the consciousness and the demon which are also connected can't just change the dynamic of said balance without farther change, change in any creature implies choice. Reds already killed, if there were no farther changes then they'd all be as Susan, and never adapt into a more comfortable life with it. At the very least they keep what remains and must grip it tight to prevent the slow spiral into being just what they look like on the outside. Tangent over, I think lol.
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No, lets stick with this, because this is the actual crux of the topic you are on.
In the Case of Whites, they are "half-born" and that's all they are. In the case of Mab, oh my no she could, and Would, Absolutely murpder every single human being on the planet if she deemed it necessary to fulfill her duties. That is entirely within her Nature. What would require a Change on the order you are imagining would be, per the WOJ that started this whole issue, "She /can't/ show up and suddenly be merciful, generous, patient and kind." She can absolutely remain a cold-hearted bitch that would slaughter millions, the only thing stopping her is that doing so would hamper the defense of the Gates by long-term attrition or by the disruption while the new Lady came up to speed; but if either of those two external forces were to go away and she thought it was worth it she could end the human race and sleep well that night (barring other/outside opposition of course).
--- Quote ---Now where were we..See above for part of that. But again, that would say the 'being' known as the Red King basically resisted what he really was for over 3k years. Resisting what you already are by our 'slow decay to natural state' theorem implies he made a conscious decision to do so for all that time.
Wamps let something in, Ramps become something in body and Blamps are replaced entirely is how it looks to me.
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There is a vast difference between Loosing your Mind and Gaining a Soul.
In the case of full Reds, they have been entirely transformed into a soulless creature, that basically just happens to use human beings as incubators; this isnt much different than the Black Court that are some sort of necromantically animated corpse. But their core Nature is that of a Predator, and that has not at all changed when one falls to being a Blood-slave. Had a Rampire attempted to go Vegan (somehow...?) or otherwise rejected their core nature, that might constitute a fundamental shift. But the core of a Rampire is just the predator, theirs nothing innate to Vampirism that says you have to be a /smart/ predator, which is the only difference between a normal controlled Rampire and a blood-slave.
The analogy my mind goes to is drug addiction (thank you Elementary binge): A Bloodslave is the equivalent of an Addict that has fully succumbed to their addiction and OD'd, whereas a normal Rampire is just an addict that is still trying to hang onto their Life (socially speaking) and hasnt yet hit Rock Bottom. Neither of those indicate the sort of fundamental /reversal/ required to actually overcome it.
Look at the other side of the line: Thomas actually exercised his Free Will for a while trying to entirely deny his Wampire Nature to the limits of physical survival. Lara has just built up an empire that makes Hunting Easier but will likely never even consider that she actually /shouldnt/ feed and even kill for any reason beyond the logistics involved. Meanwhile, per WOJ they have a sister locked in the attic that is "utterly bonkers" which I expect is a reasonable White Court equivalent to a Bloodslave.
--- Quote from: jonas on August 10, 2017, 02:56:34 PM ---*looks obliquely* now your just theorizing. On something disputed already btw(human or fae? no soul no choice?) we're still waiting on this one guy.
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Have you read Cold Case? It's pretty directly shown there multiple times.
--- Quote ---Bob's a full denizen of the mortal realm with his own mortal body? Extraneous details, not really sure what this is supposed to prove.
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Im also not sure where this was going, but fwiw Bob is neither of those things.
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