The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

WK Mantle or Lawbreaker taint?

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Mira:

  I wouldn't call the deaths at Bianca's house due to black magic, it was plain old Harry kaboom fire magic.  It isn't even clear that any of them died because of him according to Michael.. They were already drugged by vamp venom and poison, and sucked dry by Bianca's buds..  Though agreed the line between intent, [Harry didn't intend to kill any of the kids on the contrary] effect is just as bad..  Still if Harry had been responsible for their deaths you'd think when they ghost rose up and killed Bianca, that those kids would have gone after Harry.

--- Quote ---3. When he cast the Red Court Explode spell, it affected half-vampires.
4. Some of those half-vampires were really old, and their losing their half-vamp-ness caused them to immediately die.
5. Ergo, Harry caused the deaths of humans en masse when he cast that spell.
--- End quote ---

Did he really?  Or was their fates sealed when they were infected years before?  You might also say he saved hundreds of the younger half-turns, insuring that the once again lived normal human lives..  So does one balance out the other?


--- Quote ---So, post Cold Days, what are the chances that his sudden murderous tendencies aren't just the Winter Knight mantle -- what if it's also the Black Magic taint from killing dozens of humans with that spell messing with his head?

--- End quote ---

Harry doesn't have murderous tendencies..

--- Quote ---I would argue that Point #4 falls into the same category as lethal Wards, where there was not magic specifically targeting a person Mortal with lethal intentions.  I think the key mentioned in that WOJ (a recent one not in the index, Im looking) even if there is an eventual death, there was never a specific Choice made to "Kill".  He didnt Kill them, he freed them from a magical parasitic force that was trying to consume their Souls;  after that Nature took its course (and it's Due), but Id argue that isnt on him.
--- End quote ---

I agree totally with this..

LordDresden2:

--- Quote from: Snark Knight on June 29, 2017, 10:30:11 PM ---That's why I don't really find the "effects matter more than intentions" WOJ sensible. The explanation of warlock soul tainting is that to cast nasty spells, you have to convince yourself it's right, and causing the warping of ethical standards. How can that be sensibly applied to unanticipated collateral damage?
--- End quote ---

Was Jim talking about the cosmic effects of black magic in that WoJ, or the Council's legal view?  That is, was he saying your soil is more tainted from result than intent, or that the Council is more likely to whack you if you actually kill someone by accident with magic, than if you meant to kill someone with magic and failed?

LordDresden2:

--- Quote from: Snark Knight on June 29, 2017, 10:30:11 PM ---That's why I don't really find the "effects matter more than intentions" WOJ sensible. The explanation of warlock soul tainting is that to cast nasty spells, you have to convince yourself it's right, and causing the warping of ethical standards. How can that be sensibly applied to unanticipated collateral damage?

But in terms of the elimination of the Red Court and the subsequent deaths of most of the Fellowship half-turned losing their protection against aging, no, I don't believe Harry could have acquired any warlock taint from that. Why? Because he didn't cast the spell - the Reds' sorcerers did that themselves; he and Susan just hijacked its targeting by giving it her blood instead.
--- End quote ---

That's an interesting point.  What constitutes 'using' magic?  Also, the fact that their deaths weren't directly caused by the magic is important, I suspect.

groinkick:
It probably had an effect but he should have shown the signs earlier, not just because he got the Winter Knight Mantle.

Mr. Death:
There's not a lot of time passing for Harry between the spell and Cold Days -- he's shot dead the next morning, then is a ghost. And my view is, it's not happening in a vacuum. Yes, the murder urges are tied in with the lust, but what I'm thinking is the black magic taint is basically reinforcing it.

Fair points about the intent, and in fact the "distance" between the casting itself and Harry might have buffered him from the black magic taint of it more than if, say, he'd been doing the human sacrifices.

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