The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
New Blackstaff discussion
jonas:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on July 07, 2017, 08:21:25 PM ---The Laws of Magic have nothing to do with permission. Harry gave Molly permission to muck with his mind, and it was still a violation of the law.
Things are getting muddled here -- point is, nobody in the whole series ever brings up anything Faeries do -- killing, transforming, mind-screwing -- as being related to or falling under the Laws of Magic. I honestly thought it was simply a given that they weren't affected by the taint because nobody in the world seems to care.
--- End quote ---
Hold on, quantus just quoted the pertinent woj in another thread, let me go try to jack it.
--- Quote ---The consequences for breaking the Laws of Magic don't all come from people wearing grey cloaks.
And none of it necessarily has anything to do with what is Right or Wrong.
Which exist. It's finding where they start or stop existing that's the hard part.
Jim
As for violating the laws of magic themselves turning you good or evil, well. :) There's something to be said on either side of the argument, in the strictest sense, though one side of the argument is definitely less incorrect than the other. But it's going to take me several more books to lay it out, so there's no sense in ruining the fun. :)
--- End quote ---
the laws of magic have nothing to do with permission, the actuality behind them does. every law can be broken down into why it violates free will except for possibly contacting outsiders, but that's still bad juju.
Where as you took it at a given... I take NOTHING at a given, especially in the Dresden files :)
It's cool, I have lots of crazy ideas(which don't make them wrong or right lol). Hope to discuss them more with you.
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on July 07, 2017, 04:49:16 PM ---
It might also tell Mother Winter where her missing walking stick is -- with someone she can apparently summon back to her home.
--- End quote ---
I've noted before that it strikes me as very peculiar if Mother Winter doesn't know where it is. I might could believe that some quirk of Faerie law keeps from acting on the knowledge, but how likely is it, really, that the Council could keep Mother Winter in the dark for centuries on end, about something so fundamental to her?
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on July 07, 2017, 08:21:25 PM ---The Laws of Magic have nothing to do with permission. Harry gave Molly permission to muck with his mind, and it was still a violation of the law.
--- End quote ---
And note that doing so screwed with her head afterward, too. Not nearly as bad as it would have if she'd done it against his will, not as bad as when she messed with Nelson and Rosie, but it left some damage even so.
--- Quote from: Rasins on July 07, 2017, 05:14:25 PM ---We don't know if they gain a taint when they kill with magic. The only one I remember doing anything like that was Aurora, and she didn't live very long after attempting it.
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We can't be sure, but my guess is that it's a Free Will issue. A fae may choose to kill or not kill, but it'll do so accordance with its nature either way, because it doesn't have the option of doing anything else. Humans (including I'm pretty sure Bigfoot, the White Vampires, etc) are different.
Snark Knight:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on July 07, 2017, 08:21:25 PM ---The Laws of Magic have nothing to do with permission. Harry gave Molly permission to muck with his mind, and it was still a violation of the law.
--- End quote ---
I'm not at all sure I agree with that. The law is against "invading" someone's mind - that doesn't sound like a prohibition on mind magic done with consent. LtW's efforts to help heal the damage Peabody did to the younger personnel would fall under a similar situation. Also, for that matter, Molly and Harry's sparring sessions about trying to plant an idea in each other's head, which they apparently did a considerable amount of, would also be prohibited under the interpretation that consent doesn't negate the violation of the 'invade' law.
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: Snark Knight on July 08, 2017, 03:34:34 AM ---I'm not at all sure I agree with that. The law is against "invading" someone's mind - that doesn't sound like a prohibition on mind magic done with consent. LtW's efforts to help heal the damage Peabody did to the younger personnel would fall under a similar situation. Also, for that matter, Molly and Harry's sparring sessions about trying to plant an idea in each other's head, which they apparently did a considerable amount of, would also be prohibited under the interpretation that consent doesn't negate the violation of the 'invade' law.
--- End quote ---
Almost all of the Laws have a grey area around them, where some Wizards are allowed and others are not, sometimes officially (the Wardens and the Gatekeeper, for ex, can study Outsider knowledge a little more than others, from necessity), sometimes unofficial (politics and custom).
Planting an idea in someone else's head, with permission, doesn't violate the Third Law because it doesn't tell you anything about what they're thinking or knowing, but it presses against the edges of the Fourth Law. In that case it's probably just this side of the line because nobody's really being 'forced' to do anything or think anything...quite. But it is right at the edge.
Some types of illusion magic are mentioned to press against the edges of the Fourth Law, while remaining technically legal. The Council specifically allows the use of compulsory 'sleep' as a healing tool, though I suspect they expect it to be done sparingly and only with serious reason.
But 'permission' only goes so far. Helping someone suicide with magic, for ex, would be 'killing with permission', but to do so directly would surely violate the First Law. For that matter, helping Harry do what he did memory-wise means that Molly was at the edge of violating the First Law as well as actually violating the Fourth.
But those grey areas are just that, grey areas. Some people may be allowed to get away with entering them where others are not. For ex, remember that Charity told Harry that Gregory had them practicing magic that was at, as she put it, 'the crumbling edges' of the Laws. Not quite violating them, but close enough that the Wardens might take some kind of steps even so. A full Council member might be allowed to get closer to that 'crumbling edge' than a minor practitioner...or might sometimes be expected to stay further back. Politics is a fact of life.
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