The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
New Blackstaff discussion
groinkick:
We were having quite the discussion on another topic and I thought it would be better to talk about it in a new one rather than someone else's subject that wasn't about the Blackstaff.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on June 27, 2017, 09:02:33 PM ---That's still not what deployed means.
In this context, deployed would mean they told Ebenezer, "Go to this specific place and do this specific thing." They apparently do not and cannot enforce it when they do give him an instruction.
--- End quote ---
Decided to move off of this because there hasn't really been any evidence in the books if the Council has or hasn't directed Eb to do attacks or if he acts completely on his own. I personally believe he is directed to attack some things, but to the Council they want deniability, so the Council will deny any knowledge if he's found out to be the attacker.
--- Quote ---Again: That is not what war zone means. You keep using the term in a way that does not match what it means.
--- End quote ---
I guess I'm more loose with the definition. I see a war zone as any place that there is conflict, but not necessarily a declared war. Examples include the United States bombing Syria even though war has not actually been declared. Or a better example would be the Cold War in which the CIA was conducting secret missions that included assassinating people. Or a proxy war in which the United States assisted Afghanistan in killing Russians, or when the Russians were helping kill Americans in Vietnam. War had not been declared in these situations between the U.S. and Russia but deaths resulted in these proxy wars, and undeclared wars.
--- Quote ---Please tell me where we have confirmation that the White Council was in an active state of war against the Fallen, when the Dark Wizards organized into a force that could war with the White Council, when they were at war with the Old Gods in the course of Ebenezer's time with the Blackstaff.
--- End quote ---
War need not be declared for action to be taken. Also we have very little info on when the Blackstaff has taken action. It's just speculation.
--- Quote ---I.e., the acts Ebenezer committed as the Blackstaff happened in a time when the White Council explicitly was not at war.
--- End quote ---
Countries take military action all the time without actually declaring war. The United States strikes in Syria have been done without war being declared by either side.
--- Quote ---The only ones we have hints about are the people who messed with his wife (not a world-ending threat, a personal vendetta)
--- End quote ---
Will have to wait to read before making a judgement
--- Quote ---and Ortega (again, a personal vendetta -- and do you think all his human servants deserved it?).
--- End quote ---
You have used Eb's own words to describe the Blackstaff. So will I. He stated the attack was in response to the attack on Archangel, and the death of Simon, a senior Council member. His response was exactly what the Blackstaff was created for. He struck a target that the White Council could not attack without massive casualties. The Council would have had to resort to guns, and swords to avoid killing innocents with magic. Ortega was using the Council's laws against them by surrounding himself with mortals that the White Council could not attack with magic.
Eb's attack was exactly what his position was designed for. To attack an enemy of the White Council using it's laws against it. My opinion is it was an attack by the White Council in response to the attack on Archangel.
--- Quote ---We know he tried to hit Lord Raith (again, a personal vendetta -- over someone the Senior Council wanted dead anyway, so they wouldn't have ordered it).
--- End quote ---
He doesn't need to be the Blackstaff to have done the three attacks. Killing non humans is perfectly fine with the White Council. His failed attempts on Raith actually are evidence he didn't use the Blackstaff. He attempted magic that slipped off of Raith. Raith is however vulnerable to bodily attacks like bullets. Eb could have used something similar to what he used on Ortega but did not, that's evidence that he wasn't using his position as the Blackstaff and was working within the laws of magic as a normal wizard.
--- Quote ---The point is, nobody on the White Council knows who Ebenezer as the Blackstaff is killing or why. The nature of his job means that nobody is supposed to know.
--- End quote ---
I actually think this is wrong. I thought it was right earlier but upon reflection of his conversation with Harry I think he's much more like a CIA agent and that his being above the laws of magic is actually his get out of jail free card. It's similar to someone taking orders to conduct a mission, but then later on when there is new leadership they want to prosecute the person for that mission. The Blackstaff protects the person who's conducting those missions. I think the 2 confirmed attacks that were performed in the books both could have actually been ordered by the White Council. I have to reread the quote but cannot find the book right now.
--- Quote ---The point is it could happen. That the existence of a secret assassin who's allowed to break all the rules that everyone else is under the threat of death to obey, and who the potential targets have no say about is terrifying. It doesn't matter what Ebenezer has actually done with the position; the point is he could extremely easily either kill whoever he wants, or kill whoever the Senior Council deems a problem, and both situations are and should be terrifying to the lower ranking members.
Seriously, based on his known hits and attempted hits, pissing off Ebenezer personally is the only real requirement for the Blackstaff to wipe you and everyone within about a mile of your current position off the face of the planet.
--- End quote ---
I think my posts on the strike against Ortega, and Raith point to the holes in this argument. As for the attacks on his wife, that book isn't out
Zaphodess:
The point of a black-ops person/organization is that it does not officially exist. It can't hurt if people (your enemies, but also individual members) assume there is one, though. Because the existence of them poses a threat in itself. They won't try to do certain things in the first place.
I think the Blackstaff is an open secret and the White Council, especially the SC, maintain plausible deniability about his actions. Ebenezar has talked about having been given orders. But I think those were never literally orders like the Wardens get them. Certainly not in paper anywhere. It's probably more like a behind-very-closed doors conversation where Ebenezar is made aware of a problem. As the Blackstaff, he has the right to deal with it how he thinks apropriate. He might use his license to break any of the Laws, but he also might not use it. His 'superiors' probably prefer him finding an alternative solution.
Like he did with Simon (Paranet papers). He issued a couple of friendly warnings and veiled threats and Simon understood them perfectly well and behaved after that. ;)
It could be that he used his position as Blackstaff back when he got Harry the Doom of Damocles instead of a beheading at his trial. Not openly, because he can't tell he is the Blackstaff. But I wouldn't be surprised if he had argued privately that executing an apprentice for defending himself against his warlock master is exactly the kind of thing he's supposed to take care of: the letter of the Law being used against its intent.
As for him being accountable for his actions ... he is and he isn't. I don't think the SC has the right to tell him outright to do something or not. His office allows him to use his own discretion. But he can't be allowed to abuse it either. He certainly has to be careful and be able to justify his decisions if necessary. The SC has to be aware of the risk that any given Blackstaff might become a warlock, despite the safeguards. Ebenezar might be disciplined and morally grounded enough to be careful anyway. But that might not be the case for the next Blackstaff. Or some of the historical ones. I wouldn't be surprised if there have been Blackstaffs who had to be killed by the SC and a couple of Wardens because they went too trigger-happy or mad.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: groinkick on June 28, 2017, 04:40:21 AM ---Decided to move off of this because there hasn't really been any evidence in the books if the Council has or hasn't directed Eb to do attacks or if he acts completely on his own. I personally believe he is directed to attack some things, but to the Council they want deniability, so the Council will deny any knowledge if he's found out to be the attacker.
--- End quote ---
I doubt the Council directed him to attack the guys who went after his wife, or after Lord Raith.
Point is, the only person who really decides who Ebenezer hits are Ebenezer, and not in a, "Here's your target, it's your call to make the shot" way, but a, "You can pick and choose your targets entirely without us being part of the process."
--- Quote ---I guess I'm more loose with the definition. I see a war zone as any place that there is conflict, but not necessarily a declared war. Examples include the United States bombing Syria even though war has not actually been declared. Or a better example would be the Cold War in which the CIA was conducting secret missions that included assassinating people. Or a proxy war in which the United States assisted Afghanistan in killing Russians, or when the Russians were helping kill Americans in Vietnam. War had not been declared in these situations between the U.S. and Russia but deaths resulted in these proxy wars, and undeclared wars.
--- End quote ---
The cold war wasn't a "war zone," and yes, you're being so loose with the definition that it's just not the right term anymore. Point is, a sniper is sent somewhere. The Blackstaff has total autonomy.
--- Quote ---War need not be declared for action to be taken. Also we have very little info on when the Blackstaff has taken action. It's just speculation. Countries take military action all the time without actually declaring war. The United States strikes in Syria have been done without war being declared by either side.
--- End quote ---
The Blackstaff isn't a military force. It's an assassin, one that has total discretion to pick and choose its targets and methods without any apparent input or restraint from its supposed governing body.
It's less James Bond, and more The Punisher.
--- Quote ---You have used Eb's own words to describe the Blackstaff. So will I. He stated the attack was in response to the attack on Archangel, and the death of Simon, a senior Council member. His response was exactly what the Blackstaff was created for. He struck a target that the White Council could not attack without massive casualties. The Council would have had to resort to guns, and swords to avoid killing innocents with magic. Ortega was using the Council's laws against them by surrounding himself with mortals that the White Council could not attack with magic.
--- End quote ---
If it was really in response to Simon, I think it would've happened a lot sooner. Instead it happens literally the week after Ortega tries to kill Harry. I kiiiiiiinda doubt that was a coincidence.
Incidentally, if you're going to use his words...
"He killed Simon. My friend. Then he came here and tried to kill you, Hoss. And he was coming back here to finis the job as soon as he recovered. So I hit Casaverde."
His directly stated reasoning was that he hit Casaverde because Ortega was planning to come back and kill Harry. Yes, he's mad about Simon, but the direct reason is Harry. A personal vendetta.
--- Quote ---Eb's attack was exactly what his position was designed for. To attack an enemy of the White Council using it's laws against it. My opinion is it was an attack by the White Council in response to the attack on Archangel.
--- End quote ---
Ebenezer himself says it was because Ortega planned to attack Harry.
--- Quote ---He doesn't need to be the Blackstaff to have done the three attacks. Killing non humans is perfectly fine with the White Council. His failed attempts on Raith actually are evidence he didn't use the Blackstaff. He attempted magic that slipped off of Raith. Raith is however vulnerable to bodily attacks like bullets. Eb could have used something similar to what he used on Ortega but did not, that's evidence that he wasn't using his position as the Blackstaff and was working within the laws of magic as a normal wizard.
--- End quote ---
That's not evidence at all. We don't know the mechanism of the satellite spell; it could have been like the Moloccio, which was linked to a specific person, and thus the link would slip off of Raith. Or he didn't have a handy satellite and tried something more direct.
But you're right that we don't know he was doing it as the Blackstaff, so I'll drop that point.
As for the others, they're acknowledged by Ebenezer himself as being done with the Blackstaff.
--- Quote ---I actually think this is wrong. I thought it was right earlier but upon reflection of his conversation with Harry I think he's much more like a CIA agent and that his being above the laws of magic is actually his get out of jail free card. It's similar to someone taking orders to conduct a mission, but then later on when there is new leadership they want to prosecute the person for that mission. The Blackstaff protects the person who's conducting those missions. I think the 2 confirmed attacks that were performed in the books both could have actually been ordered by the White Council. I have to reread the quote but cannot find the book right now.
--- End quote ---
"could have actually been" is not evidence. We know three times that Ebenezer used the Blackstaff and for what.
1. He killed the people who went after his wife (and thousands of others who happened to be nearby; I think it was the volcano he made erupt).
2. He killed the people who went after Harry
3. He killed 200 mercenaries working for the people who were trying to kill Maggie.
The first is obviously personal. The second he admits was completely personal. The third is something that the Merlin had specifically told Harry he didn't want done.
We don't know what the other hits were, but of the ones we have, none seem to have been ordered by the White Council.
And even if they did give orders, Ebenezer self-admittedly has full autonomy to ignore them.
Snark Knight:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on June 28, 2017, 02:25:46 PM ---If it was really in response to Simon, I think it would've happened a lot sooner. Instead it happens literally the week after Ortega tries to kill Harry. I kiiiiiiinda doubt that was a coincidence.
--- End quote ---
Of course that was his real primary motivation, but the point was Archangel was still a good enough excuse for him to act against Casaverde, as far as any accountability to the rest of the of the Senior Council is concerned. He could spin it that it took a while to ascertain Archangel was Ortega's op, and by the point he was sure who to retaliate against, the duel was already on the table so he wanted to see if Harry would take care of the problem for him, but Oretga's cheating forced Eb to revert to Plan A.
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on June 28, 2017, 02:25:46 PM ---We don't know what the other hits were, but of the ones we have, none seem to have been ordered by the White Council.
--- End quote ---
I think we've got pretty good basis for linking New Madrid to retaliation for the attack on his wife. The others he told Harry about were Krakatoa and the Tunguska Event. For reasons I've elaborated elsewhere I suspect Tunguska was about wiping out a concentration of high-value BCV targets who were trying to ride out the Stokerlypse somewhere remote - if I'm right about that, the Council would have been happy to see that happen, but we have no real idea whether it was ordered or at his own initiative.
Krakatoa is an odder one. There were geological warnings signs quite a ways ahead, so that target can't have been someone mobile who could just leave via the NN. It has to have been some sort of fixed stronghold that needed to be got rid of, but whose it might have been is a puzzle.
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