The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: groinkick on June 27, 2017, 07:09:23 PM ---The Blackstaff is a position created by, and recognized by the White Council, therefor it was deployed by a chain of command. Eb didn't create it himself.
--- End quote ---
Created =/= deployed.
Deployed means a decision was made to send him somewhere to perform a task. We have no indication that the Senior Council regularly does this, or that it can enforce such orders, or a refusal of those orders.
General Ross helped create the Hulk in a lot of continuities, but you'd never say he deploys the Hulk or is in the chain of command of the Hulk.
--- Quote ---A world in which a single wizard can perform a Dark Hallow is a war zone.
--- End quote ---
By that logic, a world in which a single person can detonate a nuke is a war zone.
That's not what a war zone means.
--- Quote ---A single wizard can unleash unimaginable devastation, so yes the entire planet is in fact a war zone where anything can happen and requires someone who can strike at such a threat.
--- End quote ---
War zone: a place in which a war is being fought.
That someone can do something does not mean a war is being fought. You're using terms to mean things they simply do not mean.
--- Quote ---I think that is the most difficult thing I'm trying to convey here. In the Dresdenverse it doesn't require a country to unleash nukes. A single individual can unleash incredible devastation, on a global scale. That's why the Blackstaff exists, for those individuals or groups. I don't see anything that points to Eb abusing his power.
--- End quote ---
Regardless of the scale, a war zone is a place where war is being actively waged. It is not the excruciatingly vague definition you're trying to use so you can compare things between which there is really no apt comparison.
--- Quote ---Who says the Blackstaff only reports to the White Council? Also, do you think Eb told Harry EVERYTHING about his job? Just because he can ignore the White Council doesn't mean he's not accountable to someone, or should I say something.
--- End quote ---
Who else would he be accountable to? It's a position on the White Council chosen by the Senior Council. There's literally nobody else he could be expected to answer to.
--- Quote ---"The Blackstaff chooses the wizard" - Jim. Sounds like a Mantle to me.
--- End quote ---
The quote is, "Eb took up the Blackstaff in 1884-1885 somewhere in there. The Blackstaff chooses his successor." I.e., the wizard who has the title of Blackstaff chooses who wields it next, not that the staff itself somehow does.
According to Jim, it's just an object with special abilities, without any sentience of its own, and all it really does is shield Ebenezer from the effects of black magic.
--- Quote ---Kind of contradicts your statement about a chain of command doesn't it?
--- End quote ---
Ebenezer uses Harry as an example of him ignoring the will of the council. A chain of command means nothing when the person being "commanded" can just not follow it and faces no consequences. And Ebenezer didn't face any consequence for ignoring this order.
--- Quote ---I wasn't talking about the Council ordering him to take out it's members, I was talking about if for example Eb got tired of Langtry and decided to kill him. Think the others would just stand by except it?
--- End quote ---
Obviously they're not going to be okay with their secret, illegal assassin being turned against them. That's kind of the point.
You think White Council members will just stand by and accept that there's someone out there authorized to execute them on the spot, without even the show trial? Remember the uproar and outrage in Summer Knight when it was suggested they do that to Harry?
So yes, the Senior Council would have a problem with their secret assassin assassinating them. Just like the regular members would have a problem with that secret assassin murdering them.
That's exactly why people would have a problem with the Blackstaff.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on June 27, 2017, 08:13:38 PM ---Created =/= deployed.
Deployed means a decision was made to send him somewhere to perform a task. We have no indication that the Senior Council regularly does this, or that it can enforce such orders, or a refusal of those orders.
General Ross helped create the Hulk in a lot of continuities, but you'd never say he deploys the Hulk or is in the chain of command of the Hulk.
--- End quote ---
Are you saying that the Senior Council does not support the Blackstaff, and wants him stopped? If not then they believe he is fulfilling his position that they created.
--- Quote ---By that logic, a world in which a single person can detonate a nuke is a war zone.
--- End quote ---
If the person is attempting to detonate a nuke then yes. Can you point to an instance the Blackstaff attacked someone who was not a threat?
--- Quote ---That's not what a war zone means.
War zone: a place in which a war is being fought.
That someone can do something does not mean a war is being fought. You're using terms to mean things they simply do not mean.
Regardless of the scale, a war zone is a place where war is being actively waged. It is not the excruciatingly vague definition you're trying to use so you can compare things between which there is really no apt comparison.
--- End quote ---
Have you not been reading the books? Outsiders, vampires, Fallen, Dark Wizards, Old Gods, Fomor... There are wars being fought. You're looking at it from a human war perspective, and not from the Supernatural one.
--- Quote ---You think White Council members will just stand by and accept that there's someone out there authorized to execute them on the spot, without even the show trial? Remember the uproar and outrage in Summer Knight when it was suggested they do that to Harry?
So yes, the Senior Council would have a problem with their secret assassin assassinating them. Just like the regular members would have a problem with that secret assassin murdering them.
That's exactly why people would have a problem with the Blackstaff.
--- End quote ---
Can you point to an example of Council members being murdered by the Blackstaff without Senior Council approval? You keep saying it like it's happened a lot.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: groinkick on June 27, 2017, 08:30:25 PM ---Are you saying that the Senior Council does not support the Blackstaff, and wants him stopped? If not then they believe he is fulfilling his position that they created.
--- End quote ---
That's still not what deployed means.
In this context, deployed would mean they told Ebenezer, "Go to this specific place and do this specific thing." They apparently do not and cannot enforce it when they do give him an instruction.
--- Quote ---If the person is attempting to detonate a nuke then yes.
--- End quote ---
Again: That is not what war zone means. You keep using the term in a way that does not match what it means.
--- Quote ---Can you point to an instance the Blackstaff attacked someone who was not a threat?
Have you not been reading the books? Outsiders, vampires, Fallen, Dark Wizards, Old Gods, Fomor... There are wars being fought. You're looking at it from a human war perspective, and not from the Supernatural one.
--- End quote ---
Please tell me where we have confirmation that the White Council was in an active state of war against the Fallen, when the Dark Wizards organized into a force that could war with the White Council, when they were at war with the Old Gods in the course of Ebenezer's time with the Blackstaff.
We don't know that any of what he's done was in the context of any war, but we do know that the Council has not faced war like the Red Court in a thousand years.
I.e., the acts Ebenezer committed as the Blackstaff happened in a time when the White Council explicitly was not at war.
In fact, we don't know the identities of anyone Ebenezer has killed as the Blackstaff. The only ones we have hints about are the people who messed with his wife (not a world-ending threat, a personal vendetta) and Ortega (again, a personal vendetta -- and do you think all his human servants deserved it?). We know he tried to hit Lord Raith (again, a personal vendetta -- over someone the Senior Council wanted dead anyway, so they wouldn't have ordered it).
The point is, nobody on the White Council knows who Ebenezer as the Blackstaff is killing or why. The nature of his job means that nobody is supposed to know.
--- Quote ---Can you point to an example of Council members being murdered by the Blackstaff without Senior Council approval? You keep saying it like it's happened a lot.
--- End quote ---
That's not the point.
The point is it could happen. That the existence of a secret assassin who's allowed to break all the rules that everyone else is under the threat of death to obey, and who the potential targets have no say about is terrifying. It doesn't matter what Ebenezer has actually done with the position; the point is he could extremely easily either kill whoever he wants, or kill whoever the Senior Council deems a problem, and both situations are and should be terrifying to the lower ranking members.
Seriously, based on his known hits and attempted hits, pissing off Ebenezer personally is the only real requirement for the Blackstaff to wipe you and everyone within about a mile of your current position off the face of the planet.
dspringer1:
My two cents (or maybe 5 cents...)
* They do not need a law against stealing power from a wizard. All wizards already are part of the White Council (or warlocks) and the white council already defends their own.
* They might need a law against stealing power from a magically weak mortal -- but I suspect the benefits are low. Also, the white council protects mortals from wizards (and warlocks), so you will get into trouble either way.
* The black staff is much less powerful than you people seem to think. Or at least the power increase it grants is much less powerful. At the end of the day, it gives the wielder the option to safely use some types of magic that they would otherwise not be able to use safely. Unpleasant/disagreeable magic. That gives the blackstaff some flexibility that other wizards do not have. But it is not an increase in raw power. In reality, I suspect the Blackstaff is usually not super skilled in these dark magics as they lack the in depth practice in those arts that they have in other magical schools. So any magic is going to be relatively inefficient compared to what else they can cast. Very useful yes -- but not a total game changer.
* It is certainly possible that the blackstaff gives a raw power boost, but that has not been confirmed by the books. If it does, I suspect it does so with powers associated with death or ending (ie - powers associated with mother winter). That is consistent with how Eb used the staff.
* The position of black staff also gives the wizard a lot of additional flexibility, primarily in "grey" areas that would otherwise be forbidden. They can certainly go into the black with the blackstaff to protect them. However, any obvious steps into the black would need to be justified to the senior council. It is a license to break the rules to protect the council. It is not a general exemption from the rules. I would actually argue that the position of blackstaff gives more effective power to the wizard than possession of the black staff itself. At least more power to a wizard that wishes to remain in good standing with the white council.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on June 27, 2017, 09:02:33 PM ---That's still not what deployed means.
In this context, deployed would mean they told Ebenezer, "Go to this specific place and do this specific thing." They apparently do not and cannot enforce it when they do give him an instruction.
Again: That is not what war zone means. You keep using the term in a way that does not match what it means.
Please tell me where we have confirmation that the White Council was in an active state of war against the Fallen, when the Dark Wizards organized into a force that could war with the White Council, when they were at war with the Old Gods in the course of Ebenezer's time with the Blackstaff.
We don't know that any of what he's done was in the context of any war, but we do know that the Council has not faced war like the Red Court in a thousand years.
I.e., the acts Ebenezer committed as the Blackstaff happened in a time when the White Council explicitly was not at war.
In fact, we don't know the identities of anyone Ebenezer has killed as the Blackstaff. The only ones we have hints about are the people who messed with his wife (not a world-ending threat, a personal vendetta) and Ortega (again, a personal vendetta -- and do you think all his human servants deserved it?). We know he tried to hit Lord Raith (again, a personal vendetta -- over someone the Senior Council wanted dead anyway, so they wouldn't have ordered it).
The point is, nobody on the White Council knows who Ebenezer as the Blackstaff is killing or why. The nature of his job means that nobody is supposed to know.
That's not the point.
The point is it could happen. That the existence of a secret assassin who's allowed to break all the rules that everyone else is under the threat of death to obey, and who the potential targets have no say about is terrifying. It doesn't matter what Ebenezer has actually done with the position; the point is he could extremely easily either kill whoever he wants, or kill whoever the Senior Council deems a problem, and both situations are and should be terrifying to the lower ranking members.
Seriously, based on his known hits and attempted hits, pissing off Ebenezer personally is the only real requirement for the Blackstaff to wipe you and everyone within about a mile of your current position off the face of the planet.
--- End quote ---
I will answer this stuff but before I do what are you talking about with regards to his wife? I don't know anything about it.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version