The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)
Ulfgeir:
--- Quote from: Rasins on June 29, 2017, 04:20:58 PM ---Looked at from TWG's perspective, those "innocents" are just being sent back home (to heaven).
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I would hope that the Dresden file TWG were benevolent. if we look at real world, then well he is basically Cthulhu.
/Ulfgeir
Rasins:
--- Quote from: Ulfgeir on June 29, 2017, 05:06:47 PM ---I would hope that the Dresden file TWG were benevolent. if we look at real world, then well he is basically Cthulhu.
/Ulfgeir
--- End quote ---
LOL ... now THAT conversation could get to be a TT for sure.
toodeep:
We have seen where an individual's soul is linked with a creature of the NN. White court vampire (to their hunger) and red court vampire (to the hunter spirit) are the most obviously known, but a similar argument could be made for Harry's soul now being linked to Winter (though this would be highly arguable considering that there was no sign of a connection to his soul while he was on "walkabout" in ghost story), or Kincaid's being linked to.... whatever he is descended from.
This relationship allows the mortal to pull power from the NN creature to which he/she is linked and in return the NN creature gets to at least influence the mortal, and possibly more importantly, gets something with the potential of free will to advance its agenda.
I think if a mortal links his soul to an angel in this manner, he becomes a Saint. It gives him access to divine power and gives the angel a way to "get around the rules" restricting angelic interference and allows the mortal to use some divine power with free will. The problem being, of course, just like with having any other creatures bound to your soul, this is tough on the mortal. You always have an angel there driving you to do the right thing, possibly beyond your ability to actually accomplish, and possibly with little acceptance of your mortal frailties. Easy to see why Saints might burn out fast and go into unwinnable battles... On the reverse side, it is hard on the Angel, so they are chary to do it. After all, their power becomes linked to someone with free will, and if that person loses their cool in anger and uses it to make a nasty curse that hurts innocent descendants.... then the angel feels responsible for that too.
So I think that is what a Saint is, and association between a mortal and a creature of the NN (an angel) where the angel provides power and the human provides free will. It is dangerous (long term) for the mortal and possibly dangerous (at least spiritually/ethically) for the angel, so it doesn't happen a often - and only with someone who has earned the trust of an angel. So I really do think we could see someone become a saint in the future of the Dresden files.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Rasins on June 29, 2017, 02:41:42 PM ---Not at all. That's why there are saints and Saints.
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As Ive said so many times in this thread, I will fight this proposed nomenclature to my dying breath. >:(
(:P)
--- Quote ---Per biblical source (Paul I believe, but haven't looked it up yet), all followers of TWC are saints. Be they alive or in their graves, they are saints. Saints are those who have passed away, but are recognized as having attained paradise.
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Sure, that is one of the many contradictory definition of Saint out there in the Real World. Which is why we are trying to keep this conversation restricted to the In-Setting examples and data we have.
--- Quote ---The argument that it would require someone to be a saint to lead a mob against an elder of the Black Court Vamps is a fallacy as well.
And you have to realize that while they don't get the press, there were saints who led mobs against great evil (in the form of a BCV elder or some other thing) that weren't successful. That doesn't make them any less of a saint. It just means that they weren't as successful as other saints. And the others who were successful are the ones who got the better press and often were canonized and recognized as a Saint.
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Um, what? We're talking about Saints. Sure there are other things out there with Power that might lead such a fight, the OWJ in question listed quite a few. But we're focusing on Saints, specifically the only Dresden Files example we have. You dont need to be a Saint to lead such as fight, but as far as we have any Data anyone who is a Saint should be able to lead such a fight.
--- Quote ---I mean look at all the martyrs who died unsuccessfully fighting against an evil, but are recognized as Saints.
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Per catholic use, originally there was no distinction between Saint and Martyr, the ONLY saints were those that were Martyred. Though yes this is certainly different than the usage in the New Testament. But since we know that DF Saints are living things, that cannot be a part of it in the story.
--- Quote from: Mira on June 29, 2017, 04:15:59 PM ---But if it was a willing sacrifice, then Finn would be a saint, wouldn't he? Or at least a martyr.. Also wouldn't he have considered it a blessing instead of a curse? Not sure what long time good could come from a Loop randomly killing innocents every full moon until the end of time. I may be wrong but I think cursing someone or putting a curse on someone is the same as damning them..
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Not Finn, though perhaps the originating Ancestor; descendants are Bound by their ancestor's Choices to some degree (you can sell a baby apparently, Firstborn, etc) but the later generatiosn dont seem to get any credit for the actions of their ancestors (they can inherit responsibility, but they dont get to just inherit Faith, I wouldnt think. Wouldnt surprise me if the originating Ancestor actually /was/ the Saint in question, truthfully.
As far as Why: My theory is that Odin needed to craft a weaponized Mantle that would be powerful enough to Kill him come the prophesied Ragnarok; he needed to create the Fenrir Wolf, because only that will allow him to release his full God-level Deathcurse. He didnt want to deal with the concentrated Mass destruction of a Darkhallow ritual, so instead he created a Curse that would spread the killing harvest out over the course of generations and centuries (as WOJ implied that the Erlking did it, Im thinking one hunt at a time).
Random Note: We do have WOJ confirmation that one of Vadderung's Mantles is Saint Nicholas.
Rasins:
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 29, 2017, 06:59:48 PM ---Random Note: We do have WOJ confirmation that one of Vadderung's Mantles is Saint Nicholas.
--- End quote ---
Is it? Or is it Kris Kringle?
Common Popular belief has them as both, but are they? And is that specific Mantle Saint Nicholas?
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