The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans
Quantus:
--- Quote from: knnn on June 08, 2017, 12:22:07 PM ---<shrug>
It's not an uncommon trope that when you have enough Chaos you can occasionally randomly eventually get bubbles of Order. They might even be considered "temporary" from a "billions of years" perspective.
--- End quote ---
I have no real problem with the idea of Creation bubbling out of Chaos, more that on an aesthetic level I dislike the idea of that bubbling chaos being both a)the literal and direct animating source of all Life while also b)being a conscious malevolent entity of destruction and madness and despair and all the other things that Ive culturally been taught to associate with all lovecraftian deities.
--- Quote ---I would suggest that it has to be at least "local" to any place potentially accessible by Harry Dresden (i.e. the NN, Heaven/Hell, MM worlds, the Moon). To me, this me makes it feel general enough that the source for magic has to be something at least a bit multi-universal.
Somewhat related, there's also this WoJ (emphasis mine):
I don't think Earth can be "relatively conflict free" unless it is a universe where the Outsiders are not trying to get in. One possible reason for that is because in those universes there is no mortal magic on Earth and so nothing can summon Outsiders. So one possible ending for the BAT is that Harry permanently shuts off the world from the Outside at the cost of ending all mortal magic.
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Let me back up, Sorry. I had a burried theory/assumption in that statement, so it didnt translate well.
When I say "local" I meant local to that individual universe (including it's accociated NN), meaning there might be mirror versions in other universes. This becomes an important distinction because I do not think that is true for Outsiders. There is that line from CD about how the outsider seemed not bigger, but rather /deeper/ than things like Mab, a photograph vs a sculpture, and the WOJ that Outsiders are just Outsiders and only look different depending on what universe they are trying to get in. If each universe is a single "disk" cross-section of giant a World Tree branching out in Time, then the idea is that the Outsiders are all the negative space between and around that branching tree of Creation. And by extension that, unlike universe-level creatures, there is only one HWWB4 out there, and right now he's looking at Harry's Universe.
knnn:
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 08, 2017, 06:45:19 PM ---I have no real problem with the idea of Creation bubbling out of Chaos, more that on an aesthetic level I dislike the idea of that bubbling chaos being both a)the literal and direct animating source of all Life while also b)being a conscious malevolent entity of destruction and madness and despair and all the other things that Ive culturally been taught to associate with all lovecraftian deities.
--- End quote ---
Azathoth isn't really malevolent. He's the "mindless god". It's just the he's so alien that any contact with him leads to madness. Another example would how certain bacteria can grow and prosper in your body. When you kill them (by taking antibiotics) it has nothing to do with malevolence.
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 08, 2017, 06:45:19 PM ---When I say "local" I meant local to that individual universe (including it's accociated NN), meaning there might be mirror versions in other universes. This becomes an important distinction because I do not think that is true for Outsiders. There is that line from CD about how the outsider seemed not bigger, but rather /deeper/ than things like Mab, a photograph vs a sculpture, and the WOJ that Outsiders are just Outsiders and only look different depending on what universe they are trying to get in. If each universe is a single "disk" cross-section of giant a World Tree branching out in Time, then the idea is that the Outsiders are all the negative space between and around that branching tree of Creation. And by extension that, unlike universe-level creatures, there is only one HWWB4 out there, and right now he's looking at Harry's Universe.
--- End quote ---
I have no problem with the idea that the whole multiverse is merely a single bubble in the Outside.
Not quite sure what you're saying about HHWB. The way I see it, either he's a minion -- one who can only manifest in one universe, or he's more along the lines of Uriel -- sees multiple universes at once. I don't think this has been decided one way or the other.
peregrine:
--- Quote from: knnn on June 08, 2017, 12:22:07 PM ---I don't think Earth can be "relatively conflict free" unless it is a universe where the Outsiders are not trying to get in. One possible reason for that is because in those universes there is no mortal magic on Earth and so nothing can summon Outsiders. So one possible ending for the BAT is that Harry permanently shuts off the world from the Outside at the cost of ending all mortal magic.
--- End quote ---
All it has to do is be a universe where Earth is not the focal point for the Outsider's invasion. Maybe they are trying to storm through a planet in the Hyades with their own set of inhabitants rather than Humans on Earth.
knnn:
--- Quote from: peregrine on June 09, 2017, 02:54:54 AM ---All it has to do is be a universe where Earth is not the focal point for the Outsider's invasion. Maybe they are trying to storm through a planet in the Hyades with their own set of inhabitants rather than Humans on Earth.
--- End quote ---
Sure, but you'd still have to explain why there are no mortals on that Earth summoning Outsiders.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: knnn on June 09, 2017, 12:49:32 AM ---Not quite sure what you're saying about HHWB. The way I see it, either he's a minion -- one who can only manifest in one universe, or he's more along the lines of Uriel -- sees multiple universes at once. I don't think this has been decided one way or the other.
--- End quote ---
Theres a line from Cold Days when Harry forces HWWb4 to Name himself and gets a glimpse of the things Truth. Harry described it as:
--- Quote from: CD Ch 43 ---And this thing in my head, the thing I’d named Sharkface, was like him, a Walker, a peer. It was huge, powerful, and in a way utterly different from the kinds of power I had seen before. This thing wasn’t bigger than Mab. But it was horribly, unbearably deeper than her, like a photograph of a sculpture compared to the sculpture itself. It had power at its command that was beyond anything I had seen, beyond measure, beyond comprehension—just plain beyond.
--- End quote ---
The way I interpret that line is that Mab, like Harry and probably everyone else we've met save Uriel, is bound by the Multiverse, meaning she's a result of one specific branch and likely has Mirror versions. Outsiders, as this theory goes, are "deeper" than Mab (compared to 2D vs 3D) because they are exist outside of the branching Time that fundamentally defines and limits things born within the Multiverse.
I picture this as an existence similar to how I assume Uriel or any other 4+ dimensional beings would perceive the world. Also, while I dont know how they'd compare directly while in their native plane, I think that what Harry has faced have been limited in their ability to express Power in the Mortal world, just like the Denarians cannot bring their full Power to bear, rather only what the host can support.
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