The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Lara-Nemesis-Oblivion War

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LordDresden2:

--- Quote from: Tami Seven on May 25, 2017, 02:51:33 PM ---
--- Quote ---In a way that disappoints me, because it leaves all the logical holes and contradictions in place.  If Lara had been making it up, or distorting it for Thomas, some of those problems would be gone.
--- End quote ---
I don't see how. JB has thought this out and his explanation not only makes sense but is verified in the series. Lara doesn't need to create a whole mysterious ruse to control Thomas, we have seen her do it with much simpler methods, more traditional White Court methods.

--- End quote ---

The whole Oblivion War has some basic problems in the concept, at least as Thomas presents it.  For ex, all these entities the Venators are supposedly trying to remove from the world by everyone forgetting they ever existed...apparently they made contact with the world before at some point.  How did humanity find out about them in the first place?

Also, Thomas implies that all the entites in the NN are like that, he says the Venators tried to get rid of the Fae but failed because of the Brothers Grimm and the Gutenberg printing press.  I'm sorry, but that makes no sense.  I think later WoJ sort of implied that it's various Outsiders that the Venators are trying to wipe away from memory.  Well, that helps, because it narrows down the issue, and the Outsiders would be expected to follow different rules than the 'native' entities of the universe.

Meta-level, it's even worse.  Ever read The Martian Chronicles?

ClintACK:
I can think of two ways to make the Oblivion War make sense...

1) Things have changed.

   Once upon a time, eldritch horrors could come and go and make themselves known to early man.  Something changed (perhaps the building of the Outer Gates or the rise of organized pantheons of gods who pushed out other powerful beings who might compete for worship) and now only the knowledge of free-willed humans keeps them tethered at all to our world.

or

2) First Contact is Hard.

   In Proven Guilty, Harry describes how things can cross over from the NeverNever -- either someone here calls to it (even unconsciously as it turns out) or something really, really powerful pushes it through from the other side.

   It stands to reason that something making contact from "the other side" for the first time would have to push through -- requiring a substantial amount of effort.  Perhaps it's also hard to find our world out of all of the possible worlds and the vast space of the NeverNever, so it would take an eldritch horror a long time and a lot of energy to get back here once it's been forgotten.

LordDresden2:

--- Quote from: ClintACK on June 17, 2017, 03:22:18 PM ---I can think of two ways to make the Oblivion War make sense...

1) Things have changed.

   Once upon a time, eldritch horrors could come and go and make themselves known to early man.  Something changed (perhaps the building of the Outer Gates or the rise of organized pantheons of gods who pushed out other powerful beings who might compete for worship) and now only the knowledge of free-willed humans keeps them tethered at all to our world.

or

2) First Contact is Hard.

   In Proven Guilty, Harry describes how things can cross over from the NeverNever -- either someone here calls to it (even unconsciously as it turns out) or something really, really powerful pushes it through from the other side.

   It stands to reason that something making contact from "the other side" for the first time would have to push through -- requiring a substantial amount of effort.  Perhaps it's also hard to find our world out of all of the possible worlds and the vast space of the NeverNever, so it would take an eldritch horror a long time and a lot of energy to get back here once it's been forgotten.

--- End quote ---

Which might be true.  But that leaves the other meta-problem with the concept.  If things ever change again, whatever circumstance let them make contact returns, the nature of the Oblivion War would mean that nobody would be there to recognize them for what they are, or know why they need to be blocked!

That sort of thing is one of the reasons I've always disliked, 'belief defines reality' as a concept in fiction.  It's OK in specific cases or situations (like the DV requiring that you believe in what you're doing with magic for it to work) or a specific monster taking a shape out of someone's head (though even that has problems, it lends itself to silliness like the Sta-Puf Marshmallow Man, fine in a comedy, but when you think about it, it could just as easily work that way in a serious story because it could work that way in reality, given that concept).  When a story tries to make general reality a product of collective belief, problems immediately arise.

Even if the Oblivion War is definitely real, I still think it's likely that Thomas' understanding of it is flawed, esp. since everything he thinks he knows about it comes through Lara.  That would at least open the possibility of it making sense in the bigger picture.

nedserD C B yrraH:
What if the only things that are subject to the Oblivion war are things of the DV. Outsiders wouldn't get elimnated but any Dark Horror dreamed up by man could thus be erased, letting the focus return the real problem. These would/could have been around as far back as man feared the dark and its unknown terrors. If it happens to be an Outsider inspired eldritch that crossed into the DV plane of the MV it simply gets shunted back, not destroyed.

jonas:
Makes one wonder if Thomas isn't a 'traitor' because of his venatori work?

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