The Dresden Files > DFRPG

Playing Lawbreaking characters

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Quantus:
Wanderer,

Setting aside the flavor aspects (free-will, morality, etc) of the Lawbreaker rules, are you ok with the mechanics themselves? 

Sounds like the idea of having a PC turn NPC is a particular sticking point, IMO getting rid of that one would only risk increasing the workload on you as the DM who'd have to be more agile to account for more possible extremes. 

Would the "madness" effects of the Black Magic use be more palatable if it's described as "warmping magic to those  specific extremes creates Cracks in the Universe allowing Lovecraftian-esk "outsider" influence to seep in?   (That's one popular fan-theory for the universal issue with Black Magic).  Or how about instead focus on the "addiction" side it, like Taran described?

Shaft:

--- Quote from: Quantus on May 08, 2017, 05:13:09 PM ---Would the "madness" effects of the Black Magic use be more palatable if it's described as "warmping magic to those  specific extremes creates Cracks in the Universe allowing Lovecraftian-esk "outsider" influence to seep in?   (That's one popular fan-theory for the universal issue with Black Magic).  Or how about instead focus on the "addiction" side it, like Taran described?

--- End quote ---

With this in mind, you could actually make Lawbreaking an equivalent to Sponsored Magic.  It lets you build a "cheater" who learned spellcasting the quick and easy dark side way like Victor Sells, or it could be a boost to a legitimate wizard like Harry.

Troy:
Why not just use the rules to play an urban fantasy game which does not take place in the Dresden Universe? Or, if it does take place in the Dresden Universe, just say, "the only consequences for Lawbreaking will come from the White Council ... if they find out."

If you disagree with the entire premise of the Laws of Magic, how magic works, and Lawbreaking's effect on a character, etc, then don't even use it. Why go to all the trouble to acknowledge Lawbreaking and create something to put on a person's character sheet when it would just be easier to remove the whole thing from the game entirely. Nothing about the game changes (other than the setting) if you utterly remove the Laws of Magic, or mechanics for breaking them, from the game.

Wanderer:
Well, I can certainly see appropriate reasons why dealing with Outsiders (or their equivalent) or messing with the timestream may be bad for the Universe, even in the kind of setting I like to have, so I'm open-minded to have cosmic mechanisms in place that deal negative consequences for that kind of shenanigans. On the other hand, I'm absolutely averse to any kind of equivalent for stuff like lethal magic, body or mind manipulation, or necromancy.

Aside from getting in the way of my preferred playstyle, it smacks too much of validating conventional Abrahamic morality as true cosmic law, and I really hate it. Anything that goes too far in RPG or fiction to make a theist vision of the world factually true and 'right' gets me annoyed, uncomfortable, and if anything sympathetic with Luciferian rebellion against Heavenly tyranny. Even if magic and the supernatural get added to a setting, I very much prefer them to remain impersonal or at least neutral about ethical issues, either in the sense of them not taking sides or of all stances being represented by appropriate agents and archetypes playing on a level playing field. Even with magic, the cosmos should remain aloof and uncaring, with no apparent meaning or purpose apart from what sapient minds project on it.

Either there are no true gods, or they are fallible Ascended sapients and/or incarnations of archetypes, and pretty much all conceivable examples of the latter exist at once, including all historical major pantheons. Either there is no real Supreme God, or it is very much a distant, unknowable, uncaring Cosmic Watchmaker, impersonal First Principle, or pantheist All. The Universe at large really does not care or take sides about what sapients do to themselves and each other, either with mundane tools or supernatural powers, nor it makes any real difference whether something gets done with one's hands or one's mind.

Therefore, I'm not averse to having some kind of control mechanism in place to deal with outlandish violations of the stuff the first five Laws of Magic deal with, such as out-of-control magical serial-killers, mind-rapists, or soul-stealers, but it should absolutely be a social, legal one, same as for the equivalent mundane crimes. In other words, I'm OK with the White Council or any equivalent body establishing a code of law to deal with egregious magical crimes and enforcing it with more or less the same efficiency as mundane law enforcement. Of course, only in the case such a Code provides and allows for any sensible justifications such as necessity, self-defence, open combat or duel, consent of the subject, and the like, and cares about issues such as purpose and consequences. In this context, I assume even plot-threatening stuff such as mind-reading or controlling important NPC may be dealt with as a violation of magical law.

Wanderer:

--- Quote from: Troy on May 14, 2017, 05:41:43 AM ---Why not just use the rules to play an urban fantasy game which does not take place in the Dresden Universe? Or, if it does take place in the Dresden Universe, just say, "the only consequences for Lawbreaking will come from the White Council ... if they find out."

If you disagree with the entire premise of the Laws of Magic, how magic works, and Lawbreaking's effect on a character, etc, then don't even use it. Why go to all the trouble to acknowledge Lawbreaking and create something to put on a person's character sheet when it would just be easier to remove the whole thing from the game entirely. Nothing about the game changes (other than the setting) if you utterly remove the Laws of Magic, or mechanics for breaking them, from the game.

--- End quote ---

Well, this was basically my stance as well, except I thought it might be appropriate to keep the canon version of Lawbreaker as an optional perk for those characters that specialize in certain kinds of magic, and get additional power for it at the cost of some refresh. I certainly see reason why certain mages may get a specialization in stuff like combat magic, mind-manipulation, body control, or necromancy. As long as it remains an optional skill specialization, nobody is forced to pick it because they occasionally or even regularly use that kind of magic, and it has no special 'cosmic' meaning for the setting, I'm good with it.

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