The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
When Winter took over at the Outer Gates [Spoilers all, including the DFARPG]
CloakedDestiny:
The WoJ needs clarification, because there seems to be a bit of confusion here: It says that Hades is like the CEO of his own small company, while Satan is the Officer of a multinational conglomerate.
(click to show/hide)As he was quickly signing books, I figured I wouldn't be able to get a long answer out of him, so I shot for a yes no question - "Does Satan rule hell like Hades rules his place?" was what I tried to ask, but as soon as I said "Does Satan rule hell-" he frowned and said no. But then he heard the rest of my question and elaborated. I think I remember his answer verbatim: "Hades is like the CEO of his own small company, sort of. Satan is more like an officer of a sprawling multinational conglomerate - the hierarchy of hell operates exactly like a corporation, obviously" By 'an officer', I assume he meant CEO, what with being a fallen archangel and all, but the word he used was officer.
Personally though, I'm more convinced by the idea that the Fae courts were once united.
Lawgiver:
The main question/comment/idea I have relates to this –
--- Quote ---Fact: Mab and Titania aren't the original "Queens" Mab and Titania:
Quote from: 2015 Dragoncon
--- Quote ---I was wondering if Mab was the first Winter Queen?
No. Mab was not the first Mab. Mab was originally Winter Lady, and Lea was her Jenny Greenteeth. She was her sidekick and handmaiden. And so when Mab got promoted Lea did too. So she got to be much more powerful and awesome. But that was a while back. When that happened. And the same thing with Titania. The Winter Queens actually died. The last time things got awful in the wizard world. So things are about to get awful in the wizard world again and they're a bit nervous. They're a bit nervous about Dresden. Well, Titania is very nervous about Dresden. Mab is keeping her enemies close.
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
When you said, at the beginning
--- Quote ---I've long embraced the theory that the Winter Court's assumption of Outer Gate duty was concurrent with Mab's ascension.
--- End quote ---
are you referring to the current Mab or the original?
The current disposition of the various fae royalty comes from a compilation of a number of older Powers into a single pile which was then divided out into the six-part format we currently see. When is it proposed that this happened and most importantly … why? What use a Mother, Queen and Lady for Summer and Winter, with the level of power and responsibility they currently have, before – possibly long before – they ever took over as Guardians? I’m not sure it fits well.
I generally agree it’s likely the Nordics were the previous Guardians, but it’s not necessarily a sure thing. I’ve argued before that if they were, it’s likely that the Jotans were the actual Guardians of the Gates because they have much the same warlike disposition as the current Winter Fae, while Odin and company were more likely in the position Summer now holds, able to get involved with mortals and keeping them safe from the Jotans the way Summer keeps us safe from Winter.
What use would the Nordics have had to have such strong potential contenders for their position as the Fae courts in their current format? It just doesn’t feel right. I think the Fae are older than we’ve been thinking and that, though the current Mab and Titania got their current roles around the time of Hastings, it’s likely that the Fae Courts have been Guardians much longer than that. How long I couldn't say.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Lawgiver on December 20, 2016, 05:05:01 PM ---The main question/comment/idea I have relates to this –
When you said, at the beginning are you referring to the current Mab or the original?
The current disposition of the various fae royalty comes from a compilation of a number of older Powers into a single pile which was then divided out into the six-part format we currently see. When is it proposed that this happened and most importantly … why? What use a Mother, Queen and Lady for Summer and Winter, with the level of power and responsibility they currently have, before – possibly long before – they ever took over as Guardians? I’m not sure it fits well.
--- End quote ---
fwiw, Summer and Winter as courts technically might have predated the ascention to Gate Guardians and the consolidation of Powers that you describe. They'd have simply been another pair of Wyldfae courts without the sort of qualified-supremacy we see now, but they might have been around, and even had a Lady and Queen it not the full triplet-form we see (or all three, who knows). One Clue that always pushed me that way was the fact that Mother Winter is the only Mother Winter ever, but she is also The Queen That Was by definition, thus methinks she had to be a queen of some proto-winter Court that predates the ascension.
Lawgiver:
--- Quote from: Quantus on December 20, 2016, 05:46:37 PM ---fwiw, Summer and Winter as courts technically might have predated the ascention to Gate Guardians and the consolidation of Powers that you describe. They'd have simply been another pair of Wyldfae courts without the sort of qualified-supremacy we see now, but they might have been around, and even had a Lady and Queen it not the full triplet-form we see (or all three, who knows). One Clue that always pushed me that way was the fact that Mother Winter is the only Mother Winter ever, but she is also The Queen That Was by definition, thus methinks she had to be a queen of some proto-winter Court that predates the ascension.
--- End quote ---
Seems reasonable except for one thing. The Mother doesn't necessarily have to have been Queen prior to being established in that position. At first inception they needed someone/thing to install in the position. Doesn't mean that person/being was in any position of power/authority that could be called "Queen". Sort of like creating a new kingdom, some guy takes power and calls himself king, - or gets appointed king by his battle companions... doesn't mean he had to be a prince before hand. Nit picky, I understand, but...
CloakedDestiny:
I think you're missing the point--the positions are explicitly referred to as: The Queen that Was, the Queen that Is and the Queen that Will Be. Why would the Mother be the Queen that Was if she never, well, Was? I agree that she doesn't necessarily have to have been Queen to be the original Mother, but this represents an in-universe oddity if there is no explanation for why the Queens are referred to in this way in Summer Knight. There's a qualitative difference between that and the relationship of a Prince to a King in a Kingdom's hierarchy.
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