The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
When Winter took over at the Outer Gates [Spoilers all, including the DFARPG]
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--- Quote from: Lawgiver on December 20, 2016, 07:34:08 PM ---Seems reasonable except for one thing. The Mother doesn't necessarily have to have been Queen prior to being established in that position. At first inception they needed someone/thing to install in the position. Doesn't mean that person/being was in any position of power/authority that could be called "Queen". Sort of like creating a new kingdom, some guy takes power and calls himself king, - or gets appointed king by his battle companions... doesn't mean he had to be a prince before hand. Nit picky, I understand, but...
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--- Quote from: CloakedDestiny on December 20, 2016, 07:41:58 PM ---I think you're missing the point--the positions are explicitly referred to as: The Queen that Was, the Queen that Is and the Queen that Will Be. Why would the Mother be the Queen that Was if she never, well, Was? I agree that she doesn't necessarily have to have been Queen to be the original Mother, but this represents an in-universe oddity if there is no explanation for why the Queens are referred to in this way in Summer Knight. There's a qualitative difference between that and the relationship of a Prince to a King in a Kingdom's hierarchy.
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What CloakedDestiny said. It is specifically the "Queen that Was" bit that seems significant, especially since we are talking about a race that it seems the Universe itself wont allow to Lie.
An alternative that might satisfy it is if she were a Queen of something, but simply not previously a Fae queen. For example, one of her names is Skuld, which can either be the historic character of the youngest of the triplet Norns (norse Fates) and a Valkyrie, or else Skuld the heroic princess that become the queen of Denmark.
Lawgiver:
--- Quote from: CloakedDestiny on December 20, 2016, 07:41:58 PM ---I think you're missing the point--the positions are explicitly referred to as: The Queen that Was, the Queen that Is and the Queen that Will Be. Why would the Mother be the Queen that Was if she never, well, Was? I agree that she doesn't necessarily have to have been Queen to be the original Mother, but this represents an in-universe oddity if there is no explanation for why the Queens are referred to in this way in Summer Knight. There's a qualitative difference between that and the relationship of a Prince to a King in a Kingdom's hierarchy.
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True enough, perhaps it was a bad analogy. Think, then of the US. When it was first created Washington became the first President. There were none before him. He wasn't VP and take over later, etc. The requisite to have been Queen before being Mother -- the requirement to have been a Queen before being mother might have been created along with the posts themselves with an exception written in for the post's first occupant.
Given the Names of who we believe some of the previous Powers were who went into making up the Sidhe royalty, perhaps their previous incarnations satisfied the requirement from the getgo somehow, I don't know. I just don't see those level of Powers waiting in the wings for centuries or even millennia after their composition into their current form before they could start doing their Job. That's the sort of Power level that needs to be activated on a high priority basis, not laid on a shelf for umpteen years before being used.
I'm just unsure about when the Fae Courts became what they are and don't find the evidence given being compelling enough to say that Mab and Titania both got their current jobs at the same time the Fae became Guardians. Guardianship could have predated it. We just don't have enough to strongly point either way.
If the proposal is accurate, though, I have a question...
Since the Nordics were apparently in charge of the Gates, what entity in their group - most particularly assignable as an equivalent of Winter Queen, would have "died" (or some supernatural parallel) to have opened the slot for Mab to fill? Anyone have good candidates among either the classic Nordic pantheon, the Jotan "elites" or some associated group that might been the previous "Queen" Mab took over for?
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--- Quote from: Lawgiver on December 20, 2016, 09:13:39 PM ---Given the Names of who we believe some of the previous Powers were who went into making up the Sidhe royalty, perhaps their previous incarnations satisfied the requirement from the getgo somehow, I don't know. I just don't see those level of Powers waiting in the wings for centuries or even millennia after their composition into their current form before they could start doing their Job. That's the sort of Power level that needs to be activated on a high priority basis, not laid on a shelf for umpteen years before being used.
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Huh? What do you mean by that part?
--- Quote ---If the proposal is accurate, though, I have a question...
Since the Nordics were apparently in charge of the Gates, what entity in their group - most particularly assignable as an equivalent of Winter Queen, would have "died" (or some supernatural parallel) to have opened the slot for Mab to fill? Anyone have good candidates among either the classic Nordic pantheon, the Jotan "elites" or some associated group that might been the previous "Queen" Mab took over for?
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First thing that comes to mind is Hecate. But if we are talking Norse, I propose it would have been Heimdall who just happens to also be the Archangel Rafael, since both are prophesied to Blow a Trumpet to herald the End of Days/Twilight of the Gods/Revelation/Ragnarok/Apocalypse. Who knows, maybe they bled an Archangel's Grace out on the Stone Table.
;D
Foxed:
Two things: this is an interesting theory. I myself had placed the Jotun as the defenders at the Gate and the Aesir as the protectors from the defenders. That is to say, that Odin was replaced by TITANIA, not Mab. My thinking was that the Aesir cut a deal with the Tuatha de Denaan and the triune goddess. With faith in these pagans waning, there was an imbalance between Aesir and Jotun. By combining the Fae with the mother goddess, there was enough power to defeat the Jotun, but the power gained by the Gate responsibilities forced the triune goddess to split into two. That, plus pinning their power to a cyclical, scientific phenomenon, created a pretty solid balance.
So I think there was no Winter Court before they became the defenders. Just Mother (Unknown, but dead now), Maiden (Mab), and Crone (Mother Winter).
Second, some posters are misinterpreting the Hades/Satan thing. Hades is the ruler of his domain. The CEO. Satan is an Officer. He has a board he needs to answer to (... Legion?). that's the difference.
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Side note on this Aesir/Jotun branch of the conversation: Jotun and the Aesir/Vanir are often equated to the Titans vs Olypian gods on the greek side. TO what degree do you guys think that is the case in TDF? As in, do you see a qualitative difference between Aesir and Olympians, or between Jotun and Titans?
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