The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
Second Aristh:
--- Quote from: namkcas on June 25, 2015, 01:57:36 AM ---That makes an assumption that all immortals that are killed on Halloween will actually have their "mantles" transferred. We have exactly no evidence of that. What Bob actually says is that the immortals take small amounts of power from one another (i.e. They Trick or Treat).
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Here are Bob's exact words, my emphasis:
--- Quote from: Cold Days Ch.11 ---"Halloween is when they feed," Bob said. "Or... refuel. Or run free. It's all sort of the same thing, and I'm only conveying a small part of it. Halloween night is when the locked stasis of immortality becomes malleable. They take in energy--and it's when they can add new power to their mantle. Mostly they steal tiny bits of it from other immortals."
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--- Quote from: Eldest Gruff on June 25, 2015, 02:07:10 AM ---Could we not just chalk that bit up to a Fae specific conversation since it surrounds Harry having to kill one? And he says 'add power to their mantle' not 'mantles' which would lump them all together more. As in they add to their usually unmalleable state of immortality, their power in general. We find out later in the book at least one immortal feels no need to differentiate between a mask and a mantle, so if Bob is using the more general meaning as opposed to a specific 'everyone's got a mantle like the Fae do' definition then we've got our flexibility even within the same book.
--- End quote ---
I don't think so. The paragraph before, Bob says that "Everyone--everything--standing in this world is mortal on Halloween." Bob isn't just talking about immortal faeries.
namkcas:
I really think you are placing too much on the mantle word. So, if Hades dies does the person that kills him absorb the Mantle? I do not believe that every immortal being (remember that Naagloshii are immortals) are mantles.
Eldest Gruff:
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on June 25, 2015, 02:14:20 AM ---I don't think so. The paragraph before, Bob says that "Everyone--everything--standing in this world is mortal on Halloween." Bob isn't just talking about immortal faeries.
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Yes, but he makes a point of reminding Harry a little later in the conversation that 'there will just be another Maeve'. That Harry kept thinking about the Ladies as people and they weren't, they are mantles of power. So yes, he lumps every immortal as a 'can die' on Halloween because they can. But that in and of itself, to me, does not require them all to be mantle bearers in the same sense as the Fae. That he chose to use that particular word the way he did is twofold, it keeps Harry and the reader on focus about what he'll be dealing with in Maeve...and it sets up the later point made by Kringle about there being no difference between a mantle and a mask. That one's 'identity', one's power, and one's self is open to a wide array of interpretation and malleability, given the right time and place.
Besides, if for instance Siriothrax was a mantle holder then Ferro has no need to be upset as his demise...there will just be another Siriothrax. If Odin were a mantle he couldn't reasonably be expected to hold a second, it would just have been added to his original base of power and augmented it, rather than being separate and apart.
Second Aristh:
--- Quote from: namkcas on June 25, 2015, 02:26:01 AM ---I really think you are placing too much on the mantle word. So, if Hades dies does the person that kills him absorb the Mantle? I do not believe that every immortal being (remember that Naagloshii are immortals) are mantles.
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If Jim didn't actually mean mantle when he said mantle, it's not exactly hard to come up with a different phrasing for Bob to use in that sentence. I just think that the text and WoJ point more toward all true immortals having mantles.
--- Quote from: Eldest Gruff on June 25, 2015, 02:26:59 AM ---Yes, but he makes a point of reminding Harry a little later in the conversation that 'there will just be another Maeve'. That Harry kept thinking about the Ladies as people and they weren't, they are mantles of power. So yes, he lumps every immortal as a 'can die' on Halloween because they can. But that in and of itself, to me, does not require them all to be mantle bearers in the same sense as the Fae. That he chose to use that particular word the way he did is twofold, it keeps Harry and the reader on focus about what he'll be dealing with in Maeve...and it sets up the later point made by Kringle about there being no difference between a mantle and a mask. That one's 'identity', one's power, and one's self is open to a wide array of interpretation and malleability, given the right time and place.
Besides, if for instance Siriothrax was a mantle holder then Ferro has no need to be upset as his demise...there will just be another Siriothrax. If Odin were a mantle he couldn't reasonably be expected to hold a second, it would just have been added to his original base of power and augmented it, rather than being separate and apart.
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Bob keeps saying things like everyone too much for me to buy he was only talking about faerie queens.
As far as Odin goes, I see no problem in consistency with him holding multiple mantles. Gaining a second mantle doesn't necessarily mean the two mantles will merge. The ability manipulate and split mantles is consistent with theories on the emergence of the Summer/Winter divide.
Siriothrax is automatically a difficult question since a KotC was involved. It makes perfect sense for him to be upset if a Dragon mantle is absorbed into and overpowered by an archangel mantle, for example. That doesn't even consider personal attachments Ferro may have had.
I could certainly see there being a variety in how mantles are transferred. If a random immortal gets offed, their mantle may not fly directly to the next person. Perhaps if a skinwalker were to take a nuke on Halloween, his mantle would fly away and distribute itself evenly to all the other skinwalkers. Flexibility in the transfers would give more freedom to play around with.
Eldest Gruff:
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on June 25, 2015, 03:41:37 AM ---Bob keeps saying things like everyone too much for me to buy he was only talking about faerie queens.
As far as Odin goes, I see no problem in consistency with him holding multiple mantles. Gaining a second mantle doesn't necessarily mean the two mantles will merge. The ability manipulate and split mantles is consistent with theories on the emergence of the Summer/Winter divide.
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'Add power to their mantle'. Not split or manipulated the power into separate divisions of a mantle(s) to make a new one. They add to themselves. Power cannot be destroyed, only changed per the Einstenian conversation in SK. Kringle re-asserts this in CD, 'none of us are what we once were'. So adapting and adding the power to their own (stated) vs separating it into a different function per the same methods (theorized).
That Summer and Winter, (two already fundamentally opposing forces that could just as easily have been examples of those mantles that always existed per WOJ), possibly were founded that way based on an entirely different set of circumstances and power vector (the Stone Table) does not necessarily make it applicable to all or any other circumstances.
--- Quote ---Siriothrax is automatically a difficult question since a KotC was involved. It makes perfect sense for him to be upset if a Dragon mantle is absorbed into and overpowered by an archangel mantle, for example. That doesn't even consider personal attachments Ferro may have had.
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Is it though? Why does a KoTC give an Archangel an avenue to absorb the power? They certainly don't do anything of the sort with anything else one of the Swords has killed...vampires, Fae, Denarians...none of them make the Swords stronger or have been shown to create a conduit back to the Angels with which to utilize such power. And did Ferro really strike you as sentimental?
--- Quote ---2010 Bitten by Books Q&A:
#189 “Was Sirothrax a major dragon like Ferrovax or a minor dragon?”
He was the real deal, though he was in some ways the weakest of the remaining great dragons.
Ferrovax wouldn’t have given a damn about some nobody minor dragon being slain. :)
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--- Quote ---2011 Atlanta Signing
You mentioned that Mister Ferro won’t be back until the Apocalyptic Trilogy, right? [Jim: Probably not.] Will we see other dragons before that?
A: How many dragons do you guys want? [audience: “All of them!”] Actually, we’re darn close. There’s only like three or four of them left in the world. Which is why killing one is kind of a big deal. Also, its going to totally upset all kinds of things if that happens. So: of course. You can’t just go ‘I slew a dragon!’ ‘Greaaaaat. You did what? You did what?’ That’s the kind of reaction you garner, especially from people who are defenders of the status quo, which is pretty much everyone.
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So it seems the general principle is, Ferro has no reason to care since if Dragon's were mantles then the status quo isn't upset...and in that same spirit, Archangels would be loathe to take in such power as part of that status quo.
--- Quote ---I could certainly see there being a variety in how mantles are transferred. If a random immortal gets offed, their mantle may not fly directly to the next person. Perhaps if a skinwalker were to take a nuke on Halloween, his mantle would fly away and distribute itself evenly to all the other skinwalkers. Flexibility in the transfers would give more freedom to play around with.
--- End quote ---
Which assumes a level of flexibility that, even under Halloween parameters, has never been associated with any known mantle.
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