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He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]

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Second Aristh:

--- Quote from: Eldest Gruff on June 25, 2015, 03:58:25 AM ---'Add power to their mantle'. Not split or manipulate the power into separate divisions of a mantle(s) to make a new one. They add to themselves. Power cannot be destroyed, only changed per the Einstenian conversation in SK. Kringle re-asserts this in CD, 'none of us are what we once were'. So adapting and adding the power to their own vs separating it into a different function.

That Summer and Winter, (two already fundamentally opposing forces that could just as easily have been examples of those mantles that always existed per WOJ), possibly were founded that way based on an entirely different set of circumstances and power vector (the Stone Table) does not necessarily make it applicable to all or any other circumstances.
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Right... I'm not sure what you're getting at.  Mantles have to be able to be split somehow if immortals can steal tiny bits of power from each other.  It doesn't seem like they're all just swapping them around whole every time.  Maintaining the separateness of mantles in one vessel isn't that big of a leap.  There's WoJ that the Erlking could carve out a mini-Knight mantle from his own if he wanted to, but it wouldn't be as impressive as the Summer/Winter Knight.




--- Quote from: Eldest Gruff on June 25, 2015, 03:58:25 AM ---Is it though? Why does a KoTC give an Archangel an avenue to absorb the power? They certainly don't do anything of the sort with anything else one of the Swords has killed...vampires, Fae, Denarians...none of them make the Swords stronger or have been shown to create a conduit back to the Angels with which to utilize such power. And did Ferro really strike you as sentimental?

So it seems the general principle is, Ferro has no reason to care since if Dragon's were mantles then the status quo isn't upset...and in that same spirit, Archangels would be loathe to take in such power as part of that status quo.

Which assumes a level of flexibility that, even under Halloween parameters, has never been associated with any known mantle.

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Haha not sentimental, but prideful certainly fits his personality.  Someone killed his peer and an endangered species.  That's enough to piss him off.  It doesn't seem like he's mad enough to actually do anything about it, though.

Archangels are closely associated with the Swords regardless, and we don't have a good enough sense of scale to be able to tell the difference if chunks of power get added onto them.  If Siriothrax was going down and he was as huge a deal as he's been depicted, it makes sense that an archangel wouldn't be far away.  Something angelic was nearby with Murphy when the RC was getting taken down.  As far as being reluctant to take on a Dragon's power and responsibilities, we need more background information.  It may have been well worth the consequences.

The flexibility in transfers is a hypothesis at the moment, but it doesn't seem to be based on unreasonable assumptions.  We have WoJ that not all mantles work exactly the same way.

Eldest Gruff:

--- Quote from: Second Aristh on June 25, 2015, 04:30:24 AM ---Right... I'm not sure what you're getting at.  Mantles have to be able to be split somehow if immortals can steal tiny bits of power from each other.  It doesn't seem like they're all just swapping them around whole every time.  Maintaining the separateness of mantles in one vessel isn't that big of a leap.  There's WoJ that the Erlking could carve out a mini-Knight mantle from his own if he wanted to, but it wouldn't be as impressive as the Summer/Winter Knight.
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That if they are adding power to their mantle, then by definition they aren't splitting it up into separate 'mini mantles' within their own power. If Odin is a mantle, and Kringle is a mantle, then whichever was there first ought to have had the other added to it. Changed, absorbed, rolled into...any which way you look at it...they get a piece and fuse it with their 'mantle' or established power base. That is how its done. If they keep them apart then it goes against the 'filled vessel' notion put forth by another WOJ.

The Erkling is taking part of his own established power and adding a piece to create his own 'Knight'. He isn't keeping that 'Knight' power for himself then. So if Kringle was a piece of Odin's power gifted to someone else, sure all good. But if he takes in power then it ought to be added to his existing 'mantle'. If Odin himself is a mantle too.


--- Quote ---Haha not sentimental, but prideful certainly fits his personality.  Someone killed his peer and an endangered species.  That's enough to piss him off.  It doesn't seem like he's mad enough to actually do anything about it, though.

Archangels are closely associated with the Swords regardless, and we don't have a good enough sense of scale to be able to tell the difference if chunks of power get added onto them.  If Siriothrax was going down and he was as huge a deal as he's been depicted, it makes sense that an archangel wouldn't be far away.  Something angelic was nearby with Murphy when the RC was getting taken down.  As far as being reluctant to take on a Dragon's power and responsibilities, we need more background information.  It may have been well worth the consequences.
--- End quote ---

Angelic presence or knowledge on the matter =/= taking in that Power. Again, nothing else the Swords have killed has been noted to follow this principle. Sword doesn't get brighter the more it kills, power isn't felt as being absorbed or transferred by any wielder or sensitive magic user.

But the idea is, if 'everyone' wants to keep the status quo as far as power bases are concerned, then so too would Archangels. The idea isn't they don't wanna take on the power and responsibilities because of what it entails (which as peer cosmological beings doesn't seem like it would clash) but because it goes against the status quo in general.


--- Quote ---The flexibility in transfers is a hypothesis at the moment, but it doesn't seem to be based on unreasonable assumptions.  We have WoJ that not all mantles work exactly the same way.

--- End quote ---

And I see plenty of flexibility in the use of the word 'mantle' as it was used by Bob that doesn't require all immortals to be held fast to it in the traditional Fae sense of the power. That not everyone or everything has a mantle based on this conversation.

namkcas:

--- Quote ---If Jim didn't actually mean mantle when he said mantle, it's not exactly hard to come up with a different phrasing for Bob to use in that sentence.  I just think that the text and WoJ point more toward all true immortals having mantles. 
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No I think it was a way for Bob to explain how the exchange power.  The conversation was heavily Fae oriented at that point and the Queens in specific, so I think Bob just carried along in the conversation.

So again, every Naagloshii is a mantle as well?  Outsiders as well or just Walkers?

To me, there are positions within the Universe that were set up that need to exist.  Then there are other structures that could exist.  Those that need to exist at all times are mantles (which is why Warden of DR can't possibly be a mantle).  Mantleship means that there is a position to be filled.  Not all immortals fill a position.  For example, non-Archangels.  Naagloshii.  Dragons.  Lea.  They are just beings.  Are some/all the gods mantles? Maybe.  But the implication in Norse Mythology is that if Thor took over for Odin, he would still be Thor and would not eventually be Odin.  There are some examples of this in Greek Mythology as well.

Quantus:
There's a very recent WOJ about how the queens created their Knight/Champion mantles by carving off a piece of their own power.  The context of the question, iirc, was whether somebody like Erl could make a knight of his own, and I think the answer was yes but he's not really big enough to have that kind of power to spare, whereas the Summer/Winter knights came from the three queens. 

Ill see if I can find it.  Serack, any idea where it might have been?

Second Aristh:

--- Quote from: Eldest Gruff on June 25, 2015, 04:57:14 AM ---That if they are adding power to their mantle, then by definition they aren't splitting it up into separate 'mini mantles' within their own power. If Odin is a mantle, and Kringle is a mantle, then whichever was there first ought to have had the other added to it. Changed, absorbed, rolled into...any which way you look at it...they get a piece and fuse it with their 'mantle' or established power base. That is how its done. If they keep them apart then it goes against the 'filled vessel' notion put forth by another WOJ.

The Erkling is taking part of his own established power and adding a piece to create his own 'Knight'. He isn't keeping that 'Knight' power for himself then. So if Kringle was a piece of Odin's power gifted to someone else, sure all good. But if he takes in power then it ought to be added to his existing 'mantle'. If Odin himself is a mantle too.
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Ah okay, yeah I agree with you there.  If immortals take a small chunk of mantle then it makes sense to merge it with a previously held mantle.  But if it's a larger piece of power, it may make more sense to keep them separate.  One face for one type of job.  For instance, it may not be a good idea to mix the Hercules mantle with a fae mantle if it means you would get an iron allergy all the time.  I don't think it violates the "filled vessel" idea to have separated mantles if their sum isn't going to overflow.  Odin uses his usual mask to dish out orders to valkyries and have fun battling rampires, but he uses his Kringle face when dealing with Winter.


--- Quote from: Eldest Gruff on June 25, 2015, 03:58:25 AM ---Angelic presence or knowledge on the matter =/= taking in that Power. Again, nothing else the Swords have killed has been noted to follow this principle. Sword doesn't get brighter the more it kills, power isn't felt as being absorbed or transferred by any wielder or sensitive magic user.

But the idea is, if 'everyone' wants to keep the status quo as far as power bases are concerned, then so too would Archangels. The idea isn't they don't wanna take on the power and responsibilities because of what it entails (which as peer cosmological beings doesn't seem like it would clash) but because it goes against the status quo in general.

And I see plenty of flexibility in the use of the word 'mantle' as it was used by Bob that doesn't require all immortals to be held fast to it in the traditional Fae sense of the power. That not everyone or everything has a mantle based on this conversation.

--- End quote ---
If everyone was so bound to preserving the status quo, Michael wouldn't have been sent on duty to take down Siriothrax in the first place. 

Overall it seems like we agree in essence, but disagree on terminology to use.  Powerbases/identities/responsibilities/mantles are referring to the same basic structure, but in the event of an immortal death the transfer may not be uniform in following the fae pattern.





--- Quote from: namkcas on June 25, 2015, 05:31:51 AM ---No I think it was a way for Bob to explain how the exchange power.  The conversation was heavily Fae oriented at that point and the Queens in specific, so I think Bob just carried along in the conversation.

So again, every Naagloshii is a mantle as well?  Outsiders as well or just Walkers?

To me, there are positions within the Universe that were set up that need to exist.  Then there are other structures that could exist.  Those that need to exist at all times are mantles (which is why Warden of DR can't possibly be a mantle).  Mantleship means that there is a position to be filled.  Not all immortals fill a position.  For example, non-Archangels.  Naagloshii.  Dragons.  Lea.  They are just beings.  Are some/all the gods mantles? Maybe.  But the implication in Norse Mythology is that if Thor took over for Odin, he would still be Thor and would not eventually be Odin.  There are some examples of this in Greek Mythology as well.

--- End quote ---
It takes a lot of logical acrobatics to argue that Bob was only talking about faeries when he says mantles.  The queens are very interested in preserving balance, so it doesn't make sense for them to be out trick or treating to gain and possibly lose power.  The simple explanation is that Bob meant exactly what he said.

So unless there emerges a compelling reason to ignore Bob, I'm going with Naagloshii have mantles for some unknown and possibly corrupted Purpose.  Outsiders are less likely to have to follow the rules of our reality, so they might not.

The way the DV is set up for the big leagues, Purpose and Power are two sides of the same coin.  The role, responsibility, and power to accomplish duties are all fused together.  For example the Purpose of an angel of death is to be a psychopomp and defend souls as they make their way to whatever is next.  We know by WoJ that Dragons were once "given authority over various portions of the mortal universe" which sounds too much like the duties of holding a mantle to be a coincidence. 
As slivers of power are traded around on Halloween, the associated responsibilities go with that power.  That explains how perceptions of the various immortals of myth change over time.

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