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Grand Unifying Cosmological Mantle Theory [Series spoilers including MM WoJs]

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Serack:

--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on June 21, 2014, 04:33:25 PM ---My only issue with the Dipole analogy is that it implies Balance.  I'm not sure that's the case.  Is your theory that the Outsiders are from the second Pole?  The unreality to reality?  The Chaos to Order?   Because I don't feel like they can be True Chaos.  If they were, the universes would be in really bad shape.

--- End quote ---

Heh, I get around that problem by saying that the Dipole analogy is just an imperfect model that can be used to try to examine certain relationships, but does not cover the whole cosmology by itself. 

Kind of like how Newtonian physics is a model that allows us to examine how reality works in most but not all situations.  Or maybe even more accurately, kind of like how a true electric dipole doesn't exist in isolation but is in fact surrounded by the rest of the universe's charge distribution.  However we can still learn a lot about how electromagnetism works by examining a dipole model.

Edit:  I also described a different model, that IMO does a slightly better job of being inclusive of other possibilities, but is flawed in being difficult to communicate and visualize, and not necessarily being grounded in what actually exists in the DF seeing as to how we don't really know anyways.

As to where Outsiders fall in the model.  I'd say we need more data.  However, when I read the scene where Hades' crown was mordite orbiting his head, I filed that away as an incredibly interesting data point.

Serack:
Ok, now to address Griff's points directly.


--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on June 21, 2014, 03:37:06 PM ---Transplant complete!

1) Is each Mantle an individual Aspect/Aeon?
--- End quote ---
I liked using the term "quasi discrete" because they still have ties back to upper tier Aspect/Aeon and to their sibling (for lack of a better term) Aspect/Aeons.  Sorry that's kind of a non answer...


--- Quote ---2) Clearly Vadderrung has two different Mantles, and they remain separate from each other.  They don't seem to manifest at the same time, but they're held by the same being.  Is their compatibility due to their varied nature, and the WK/SK incompatibility due to their similar, opposing nature?
--- End quote ---
Interesting question.  I actually have a side/related theory that the Odin/Kringle duality was needed because when Mab took over at the Outer Gates the action offended (I am a fan of the theories that the Aesir were the guardians before the Fae).  The duality ended up becoming necessary to allow a pissed off Odin to set that grudge aside when necessary by putting on a faerie hat of his own.  Thus when it comes time to take care of business that reality hinges on and stuff, he has a tool in his toolbox that makes that possible.


--- Quote from: SG Ch. 44 ---"You're here as Kringle, seriously?"  I asked him.
Kringle winked at me.  "The Winter Knight called for me in his official capacity as an agent of the Winter Court.  Mab has the right to summon Kringle.  If she'd called for Vadderung, I'd have told her to get in line."
[/snip]
"But you and Kringle are the same person," I said.
"Legally speaking, Kringle and Vadderung are two entirely different people who simply happen to reside in the same body," he replied.
"That's just a fiction," I said, "a little game of protocol."
"Little games of protocol are how one shows respect, especially to those with whom on does not get along famously well. It can be tedious, but generally is less trouble than a duel would be."
--- End quote ---

So either the powers that be allowed a little bit of Fae Power to get fashioned into an extra bit of mantle to placate Odin for whatever causes him to not get along famously well with Mab over, or Mortal Belief provided the framework for that odd bit of duality, or Odin sliced it off himself on Halloween or some such to please his own needs, or some combination of those... but somehow he got it, and it sure seems to suit his purposes when he wants.

I'll post this and then start editing in my responses for the rest of your comments.


--- Quote ---3) Are human Souls a Mantle? From a certain viewpoint, a mortal shell/being is given an immortal power source to use for a time, and when the shell dies, the power source departs, continuing to exist elsewhere.  Its almost like a Mantle, albeit not apparently reused, at least in some beliefs.
--- End quote ---
Hmmm, deep.  And apparently the kind of question the gnostics loved to examine.  In fact, I believe for some of them, they believed that upon death, the soul was finally released from the imperfect and impure mortal reality and was finally allowed to reunite with the upper levels of existence. 

So I'd say this certainly seems like a valid interpretation of GUCMT, but that we can't really be sure of the true nature of the soul.


--- Quote ---4) If a Soul is an Aeon/Aspect, then wouldn't it mean that it would remain separate from the Mantle, and not be destroyed?  There's been speculation by some that a host's Soul is slowly absorbed by the Queens Mantles, merging with them.  But the Aeon/Aspect theory combined with the dual nature of Vadderrung's Mantles would imply that Aeons coexist and remain separate.  Would that be the same for Souls, or are those Aeon's too weak to survive alone?  I think there was a WoJ talking about how Mab lost her Soul.  Did it just move on, since the Mantle Aeon pushed it out?
--- End quote ---
Hmmmm, I know you are familiar with WoJ #14 which is the best I have for answering this train of thought.  I think a better analogy for what may have happened to Mab's Soul would be that it withered and died due to maltreatment/malnourishment or something... 

Interestingly, we have a WoJ that the fundamental reason why Harry couldn't have ended up with Maeve's Lady mantle isn't just that he isn't the right gender, but because as a vessel for mantles, his is too full.  I'll have to add that to the multiple mantle section of reply #2.


--- Quote ---5) So Mister is Ferro?  j/k
6) Seriously, why hasn't Harry used Mister in a joke yet?  "Mister Dresden?" "Mister Dresden is my cat.  Call me Harry."
--- End quote ---
How have I never heard that one before?  Hillarious.


--- Quote ---7) Could the inherent incompatibility of the W/S Mantles be due to the fact they were one Aeon/Aspect, which was then unnaturally divided into six/eight, rather than "pooping" out sub-Aspects?  And if re-merging the WK/SK Mantles is such a bad thing, wouldn't it have been almost as bad for the SK Mantle to go to Winter in SK?  For that matter, any of the six/eight Fae Mantles joining with any of the opposing side would be bad.
--- End quote ---
I spent some time answering this in the multiple mantles section of Reply #2.  I think I came up with an excellent response.


--- Quote ---8) Souls are the perfect memories and sums of the lives they've led.  But the mortal isn't aware or familiar with that perfect knowledge, nor even sure of its existence.  Could the same be said for the Mantles/Aeons and their hosts?  Upper echelon Aeons like Uriel might be self-aware of their Aeon/Aspect power and existence, explaining their inability to act; becoming aware of the situation in some way would limit their interaction.  The Queens are partly aware, on three different levels, which allows for them to interact with events on three different levels.  Mortals, being the least aware, are free to act.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure what I am supposed to be answering here...  Generally for GUCMT, it seems that the more powerful the being, the more reality spanning, and more aware of their spanning of the reality spectrum.  I do like how this ties the non wetware storage of mortal experiences to GUCMT though.  I would say that the more powerful beings (I'll use that term for Mantles/Aeon's and their hosts together) apparently have access to this data storage.  Either by watching it play across a Ghosts being, or some other means like with Lasciel's shadow.

Interestingly enough, a freaking Soul Gaze does this.  That's right a Soul Gaze ties neatly into GUCMT.  In fact, the Molly Soul Gaze is a perfect example of how a Soul Gaze can look across possible future realities to show how her decisions could result in her becoming a different person.  And it gets etched into Harry's memory. 


--- Quote ---9) In that sense, the whole purpose of mortals is to be the foot soldiers and pawns of upper level Aeons.  Since they are unable to act, everything has to be fought on mortal plane.  Obviously some battles are on other planes, like the Gates in the NN, but the eternal struggle between the two Poles is not fought at the wall, but on Earth.  The wall and Gates are simply to keep the game board from being overrun.
10) How does corruption play into the Aeon/Aspect theory?  If TWG is one Pole, or so high/close to the 'Order' Pole that Its practically the same thing, then everything It created/"pooped" would be a lighter/ordered Aspect like itself.  But clearly higher level Aeon/Aspects can be corrupted, like Lucifer.  Luci should have been very high up on the Lightside, but Fell to the Darkside.  Was that corruption due to something like Nemesis, or an inherent ability of Aeons/Aspects to change?
--- End quote ---
Meh, this gets kinda deep, and I'm not sure if I can address it.  In the Amber Chronicles, it becomes an issue that at one point there was only one pole, and a prince of that pole actually struck out across reality and established the other pole, and somehow that act is what instituted all other reality.  And part of the nature of the original pole is the need to destroy and subsume the opposite pole.  But wait, if that were to happen, all reality would be destroyed.  But then how could it have been established in the first place. And the egg and chicken need to be destroyed (that's me taking the conundrum and getting silly)

So maybe things weren't interesting until the "Fall" anyways.  And maybe because they weren't interesting, they were unstable and the "Fall" was an inherent characteristic of this instability. 

I'm not sure where corruption comes in in this, although in the Amber Chronicles, there was a major plot line where the Chaosians cut the crap and blazed a corrupted trail across all reality in an attempt to assault Amber directly. 

And that I am not limiting my internal model to a binary duality of the universal cosmic forces like in the Amber Dipole Model.

Time to walk the dog, I'll edit in more responses later.


--- Quote ---11) In SG, Uriel gave up his Grace, which in this theory, would be the equivalent of his Aeon.  Had Michael acted poorly while wielding it, what would have happened to the Grace/Aeon?  It doesn't seem like an Aeon could be destroyed, so it would have to go somewhere.  Would it simply Fall to where Lucifer and the other Fallen Aeons are kept?  Would Uriel remain a mortal, bearing only a mortal Soul?  Would he have no Soul?  And what about Luci?  When he Fell, did he take on a mortal form, to live out his days as a human, and his Aeon/Mantle/Grace was put away in a lockbox?  Or was did his Soul remain with the Aeon/Mantle/Grace? 
--- End quote ---
Hmmmm, well seeing as to how it was a Mortal who would have made the critical decisions, it might only apply to the local reality or set of realities.  Or since it's involving such a heavyweight "Aeon" it might span a lot more if not all of the reality spectrum.  As to what would have happened to the mantle and Uriel, I suppose that would depend entirely on how things shook down.  Which means Jim would have to write it and see.

As for Lucifer, I think he didn't split from his mantle.  The Angelic mantles are a little odd to me...  Are Rafael's lieutenants emanations of himself, or were they created from whole cloth when Rafael was created by or emanated from the Creator?  And thus could Lucifer poop out sub mantles like seems to have happened to the Fae left and right. 

The best example we have of "lesser" fallen effecting the mortal realm are the Denarian's who apparently fell along with Lucifer, and then much later in some major turning point event (probably hinging on Free Will, like the choice to betray the White Christ) they were bound to the Denarian coins and thus were apparently cast out of Hell, but given a measure of influence over the mortal realm. 

Oh.  Hey look at that!  We have a rather recent example of one of those emanating out a hybrid aspect with a relatively significant Mortal.  And hints of something similar happening in the past (Bob).


--- Quote ---12) Is it the Soul that can be corrupted, rather than a higher level Aeon/Mantle/Grace?  Do all beings, high and low, have a base ingredient Soul, which can be manipulated?  And that Soul is what causes higher beings to Fall?  In theory, to be mortal, Uriel would have to have a mortal Soul.  If he had one, then Lucifer should have too, right?  So is that Soul still tied to the Aeon/Mantle/Grace of Lucifer wherever it is?  Is that twisted Soul what is causing the Grace to act out of character?  And if it were separated, would the Aeon/Mantle/Grace appear to be corrupted/Fallen, or would it return to its normal Lightside state?
--- End quote ---
Hmmmmm...  I'm not sure what to say about the Soul/Mantle comments other than your pointing out that Uriel seemed to be able to differentiate between his Grace and his personhood(soul?) which is good evidence that they were separate. 

I will say that nobody seemed worried that the nemfection would pass from Maeve to Molly with that mantle though...  Heck... ok with that perspective we might be able to make some applications of GUCMT... We know the cosmic powers can't change... Although how they manifest or are understood can change.  And Per GUCMT, part of how they manifest is the emanation of Aspects.  Mostly it would seem that those Aspects/Mantles only change in how much influence they end up having due to Free Will choices, and they probably can't change much without getting reabsorbed back into the upper echelon Aspect first, although that isn't a sure thing... Still if we assume that, and we assume that Archangels have personhoods that can be held distinct from their power/Aeon/Grace/Mantle, then a Fallen Angel's internal change and corruption is probably only only associated with that distinct personhood, and not the actual Mantle itself.

Which isn't to say that the power of the mantle isn't now being used by that corrupted being for some gawd awful stuff.  A hammer can be used to build a house or bash heads in.


--- Quote ---13) Or did Uriel separate himself from his Grace on purpose, knowing that if he Fell, the Aeon/Mantle/Grace would remain unblemished, while only his mortal Soul would Fall?  If so, is the issue with the Fallen that they didn't separate from their Aeon/Mantle/Grace before being corrupted?  And is that corruption in both Soul and Grace, or only the Soul?  And would both need to be redeemed, or only one?  Clearly Uriel could separate from his Grace, but maybe he couldn't have separated Lucifer from his; its a decision of Self.  That would mean that if the Soul of Lucifer decided to relinquish its hold on its higher level Aeon/Mantle/Grace, would that power be restored to the Lightside, and could it be re-assigned to a new Soul?  A new Lucifer, on the side of good?
--- End quote ---
Sorry, I've spent enough brain power on the angelic grace angle today... *fzut* *sputter* *kaput* overload, no more no more.


--- Quote ---14) Taking it the other way, are the Outsiders upper level Aeons working without Souls, which is why they can't exist or interact with the mortal plane?  They should be restricted from reality, and unable to work there, just like the other Aeons.  But their nature is Chaos, from the other Pole, and therefore not following the rules is their natural state.  So if they get through, they would be pure Aeons existing where they shouldn't?

--- End quote ---

No clue sorry...  My best attempt at interpreting the Outsider role, is that they could be from a separate reality spectrum subject to a totally different form of splitting regulated by something only mildly related to our concept of Free Will.

I am just now reminded of a WoJ I think I heard in the past month or so that I need to hunt down...

KG:
Serack, this is an interesting theory that you have clearly thought about a lot and worked hard to develop.  It's spawned some thoughts I wanted to share, but I haven't spent a lot of time ordering them in a way that I can specifically apply them in parallel to the work you've done, so I'll just drop them as discrete points that might help further the conversation, for now.

George is George, no matter what name you call him.
(click to show/hide)Jim has stated that the beings of immense power (Gods, or whatever you want to call them) are pretty cool, and it's all of us who are stupid.  I take that comment to mean that there is basically one being in any given role, but there are tons of names and variations on what the role is which have been generated over time and associated with the being in such a way that the being has essentially absorbed those names and associations.  The being itself has not changed, but mortal perception and understanding of the being has, over time.  As an example, the Creator is one being, let's call him George.  George has always been around and always will be around and will forever do what he does.  Over time, different mortal civilizations have seen small bits of George and theorized different reasons for George's existence.  Some people called him God.  Some people called him Allah.  Others referred to Yahweh, or Jehovah, or Jesus, or The Light, or Elohim.  It doesn't matter, George is who he is and does what he does, and he forgives all the ignorant mortals that waste their time arguing and fighting wars over who is correct.

The point of this is, George is George is George.  Different groups of people, in different times, shaped by different geographic locations and languages and cultures have all described the same being in different ways.  This is significant, and George notices, but it doesn't change who he is or what he does.  The mortals just perceive him differently based on all these names and descriptions. 

George might, were he so inclined and able to appear to some civilization, utilize their particular perception of him in order to make the experience less shocking and more understandable.  George is George, but an American Roman Catholic doesn't know George.  So, if George was going to appear to this person he might appear as "God," because this person has a set of concepts associated with that theorized being that he would understand.  "God" is a very biased and incomplete picture of George, but at least it's a framework this person would understand, so George doesn't have to work from scratch to explain who he is to this person.

Now, take another being and do the same thing.  I'll call her Edna.  Greek & Roman culture in Harry Dresden's universe described Edna as Hecate.  Harry Dresden knows 6 Queens of Faerie.  Perhaps in his reality, mortal choices have been made throughout time that have resulted in a world where Edna is now perceived as 6 different, individual beings.  Edna is still who she's always been, doing what she's always done, but mortal perception and understanding of her has changed over time such that she interacts with mortals in this reality as 6 different beings, rather than as 3 or as just 1.  Edna doesn't really care HOW she gets her job done, just THAT she gets her job done.  It makes no difference to her if Harry and other mortals think there are 6 people doing 6 different jobs, at the end of the day it all adds up to Edna just doing her thing. 

You can think of it like a type of interface, really.  George and Edna are who they are and they've got Jobs to do.  They need mortal help to do these Jobs, to one degree or another.  George and Edna would destroy our reality by coming into it as themselves, so they use an interface to interact with us, rather than direct, face-to-face conversation.  They have a variety of different options to choose from, and they choose the appropriate interface for the particular mortals they are interacting with at the time.  Harry wouldn't understand many of the different perceptions of Edna that other civilizations throughout time or in different realities have described, so using those interfaces would make Edna's job more difficult.  It's simplest for her to use one (or all) of the Faerie Queens to interface with Harry, because he has the best understanding of Edna through those constructs, and Edna has less background work to do in order to get Harry's help.

This also explains, when the Mothers were talking about Harry's use of various Names to describe Mother Winter, why both Mothers were worried about him knowing one /particular/ Name.  Just as there are names and Names, I believe there are also NAMES!  Edna is the NAME of a particular being, and there might be many Names, each associated with small parts of that being.  Invoking one of those Names might get the attention of part of that being, but invoking the entire, full being's NAME is something orders of magnitude greater.
George isn't a flakey kind of guy.
(click to show/hide)I don't know if I buy into the idea of beings on higher planes of existence flaking off bits of themselves every time mortal decisions are made and creating lower-tier beings.  It seems clear there are mechanisms that beings can move up or down these tiers, but I think it's more mechanical and less mystical.  I can buy that there was one Creator being that created many of the other powerful beings, but I think that's where it stopped, I don't think it's an ever-continuing process.  I think George created a lieutenant, Frank, to do a particular Job, and Frank's been doing that ever since, as different beings in different realities.  Frank didn't suddenly flake off of George as a mini-me because some mortal made a particular choice in a particular reality.  If that were the case, Frank wouldn't span all realities,  because the choice that spawned him in one reality would not have happened in every other reality.

Now, sometimes these other powerful beings that were created might go away for one reason or another (they Fell, retired, or are simply "Out"), but that's why there are mechanisms in place for other beings to gain power and ascend to higher planes of existence.  If they are worthy enough, and make the correct choices, they will figure it out and become what they need to become to take over some particular role that needs filled.  Remember, Mab wasn't created to guard the Outer Gates, and it wasn't always a Winter Queen that was in charge of that Job.  She started out as a mortal and eventually rose to her current position, and then took over that Job from some other being or group.  This wouldn't really be necessary if it were as simple and convenient as George flaking off a new guard of the Outer Gates when the right choice was made by some mortal.
Pruning the Cosmic Forest
(click to show/hide)Griff's construction is simpler to grasp, just because it skips a lot of the higher-level conceptualization and goes right into simple, real-world analogies.  I don't think these two ways of describing the cosmology are mutually exclusive, mind you, although they could be.  It depends on how you characterize each, but I think they could simply be two different ways of describing the same situation.

Under this model, Griff, I think it might be more accurate to describe reality-spanning beings as the soil, rather than the roots.  The tree roots might not all interconnect, but they do all grow in the same soil.  The Lieutenants like Frank are the soil that spans the entirety of the forest, but even they don't have the highest vantage point.  George, the Creator, is responsible for the light and rainfall that allow the trees to grow.  George gives Frank what he needs and Frank does his Job, as the soil.
This is all very fascinating.  I have to admit, it made me do a lot of thinking about DF concepts I haven't really considered before.  :)

Serack:
Ok, I didn't get to read all of Griff's spoilerized alternate Oak Tree model/analogy earlier.  I like it. 

KG's George concepts are especially thought provoking.  The main place where they break down for me is that one of "Edna's" 6 faces she uses to interface with Harry happens to be his apprentice of several years.  However, I must say that it holds together pretty much as well as my vaunted "GUCMT"

For me, it works best because I feel as though the Mothers are indeed putting on a face when they interact with Harry in order for him to best understand with his limited perceptions what they are.

Brightbane:
This is kind of how Brandon Sanderson's books work. He has the gods that can be fragmented that can then splinter, and are the source of souls in entire worlds. And then he has characters that can travel between the worlds.

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