The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Grand Unifying Cosmological Mantle Theory [Series spoilers including MM WoJs]
knnn:
--- Quote from: Serack on June 25, 2014, 04:03:54 PM ---As far as Uriel's grace is concerned, a new thought I've come up with is that Michael had violated it, he would have probably done so outside of the boundaries of his own home turf reality (I.E. on the other side of the NN veil in Hades). This could have had pretty huge ramifications on just how such a "Fall" would have shaken out.
--- End quote ---
Ooooh. That could have interesting ramifications.
Still, I think my original point stands in that I could envision an alternate world where the main WG religion was sufficiently different that the concept of a "Fall" is not applicable. This would create the potentially for "secondary beings" that exist in multiple universes, just not all of them.
--- Quote from: Serack on June 25, 2014, 04:03:54 PM ---works great for me
--- End quote ---
Lol. :) It bothered me a lot more when I first came up with the idea. You must be more theologically resilient than I am.
Thing is, if this was really true, then those artifacts in Hades vault might really have planted been there for Nicodemus to use. Remember the conversation where Hades reveals that the whole ordeal was a test to see if the person was competent enough to wield the items? I never liked the implication that it was Harry that passed the tests. After all, he was just a pawn; Nicodemus made all the plans/sacrifices (kinda how Toot-Toot isn't blamed for killing Aurora).
What if the PLAN all along was/is for Nicodemus to use the artifacts (and be the savior our Reality), and they are just currently in Harry's hands for safekeeping (so that Nic doesn't use the weapons against humanity) until the ultimate moment. This would fit with the whole "Heaven's job is to protect humanity from Hell", and might also fit nicely with the whole Nicodemus/Deirde conversations we've overheard, as well as Nic's "You might be surprised" comment (from SmF? It's when Harry sarcastically calls Nic a saint).
....I apologize for diverging a bit from the OP. I'd start a different thread, but I am quite swamped right now and don't have the time to really flesh out this line of thought. I may get back to it in a week or two.
--- Quote from: Serack on June 25, 2014, 04:03:54 PM ---I'd like to think that Harry's concept of the "Nevernever" is about as nuanced as his early usage of the term "Demon"
--- End quote ---
Granted, though the few WoJs we have (and you quoted) do seem to provisionally support that position.
Griffyn612:
Here's my latest take on the Power structure for the Dresdenverse. It breaks down as Aspects of Reality. Here, an Aspect is Reality itself, whereas an Avatar is the faith/belief manifestation of that Aspect.
EVERYTHING
In the beginning, there was EVERYTHING.
From sheer boredom, EVERYTHING then split into two: Order, and Chaos
ORDER
(click to show/hide) - Order is vast, with varying degrees of permanence.
- The center of Order is Reality. It is where everything is governed by strict Laws.
- The rest of Order is the machine-works of Reality. It is governed by the same Laws, only of varying degrees.
- Order has Aspects, which are manifestations of its properties.
- Order consists of two Pantheons of Law: Divine Law, and Natural Law
- Divine Law is what Must Be, to keep Chaos from Order.
- Natural Law is what Is, to make Order of Chaos.
- Divine Law has Eternal Aspects, which serve its purpose.
- Archangels, Angels, and Divine Beings of other mythological pantheons belong to Divine Law.
- Natural Law has Eternal Aspects, which define its purpose.
- Spirits and Elemental Beings belong to Natural Law.
CHAOS
(click to show/hide) - Chaos is vast, with no rhyme or reason.
- The inner edge of Chaos is The Outside, which lies outside of Order.
- The Outside has some semblance of Order, in order to interact with it.
- The rest of Chaos is Empty Night, which is endless disorder and chaos without light.
- Chaos has its own Aspects, which are manifestations of its properties.
- These Aspects of Chaos exist only 'near' the border with Order.
- The Higher Aspects of Chaos are the Old Ones, ancient powerful beings.
- The Old Ones are served by Outsiders, which attack Order to restore Chaos.
ASPECTS of ORDER
(click to show/hide) - An Aspect is the Manifestation of the Purpose of a Law.
- A Divine Law exists as an Absolute, without change or compromise.
- As it is Absolute, an Aspect of a Divine Law is Immortal, Unchanging, and Unbending.
- A Natural Law exists as a product of Order, which is constantly in motion and change.
- As it is Malleable, an Aspect of Natural Law is influenced by faith and belief in Reality.
The Concept of Natural Aspects
(click to show/hide) - There is Gas
- There is Air
- There is Wind
- There is The Air Stream
- There is The Hurricane
- There is The Storm
- There is The Gale
- There is The Breeze
- There is The Calm
The Breeze is a small part of the sum of Air. It is unaware of its place in things; it only knows of its own existence. It is an Aspect of Air, but it is a separate manifestation of it.
Further, the Breeze is eternal, as long as the Wind blows. But humanity experiences the Breeze, and names it Aura. With faith and belief, Aura is manifested. She appears human, and thinks somewhat like a human. But she is an Avatar of the Aspect of the Breeze. She is not the Breeze itself, only a part of it. In a very small way, she is a part of the Wind as well, but only as the Breeze is part of the Wind.
Aeolus is the name given to all Winds. Thus Aeolus is born, as an Avatar of all Wind. Aeolus encompasses Breezes, but is not an Avatar of the Breeze; it is both greater and lesser than Aura.
The north wind is named Boreas, and thus is the Avatar Boreas created through faith and belief. Boreas is separate from Aeolus, but is an Avatar of the Aspect of the greater Aspect. He is weaker than Aeolus, but more powerfully defined in his own domain.
Applying it Loosely to The Winter Queens
(click to show/hide)Mother Winter is the Avatar of Winter. She is the bitter cold, the death of crops, the creep of ice, the fall of snow, and the dark of long night.
Winter Queen is the Avatar of Air and Darkness. She is the freezing wind and the dark of long night.
Winter Lady is the Avatar of the Cold Tundra. She is the icy plains.
Winter Knight is the Avatar of Winter's Hunger. He is the barren stores and desperate measures.
Each is an Avatar of an Aspect of Winter. The lesser mantles encompass fewer Aspects. Thus are they weaker. Winter's Hunger might seem more powerful than Cold Tundra, but it is dependent on life to suffer, whereas the Cold Tundra only requires cold and water. One is desperate and rash to act, whereas the other is not.
Applying it Loosely to Hecate
(click to show/hide)Mother Earth is life and death, summer and winter, joy and pain. Mother Earth is the earth, the air, and the seas.
Humanity looks upon Mother Earth, and gives her the name Hecate. Hecate is born, becoming the Avatar of Mother Earth. She is part of Mother Earth, but not all of it. Hecate is aware of herself, and her role. She is all-encompassing of the experiences on Earth. And she recognizes a threat from Outside.
Mother Winter is an Avatar of one of Hecate's Aspects. But she is not Hecate. Nor is Mother Summer. But all six Queens of Faerie combined are Avatars equal to the sum of the Avatar Hecate. Thus are they Hecate, but they are not. They know that they are Avatars of her Aspects, and recognize their role in Hecate's existence.
Why we'll never see Hecate
(click to show/hide)Hecate is above and beyond human perception. As she is every Aspect of Mother Earth, she is nearly equal to Mother Earth itself. Thus is she unable to manifest there. The Mothers' too are great in scope and power, to the point that they can but rarely manifest on Earth. To do so would to encompass all that they are in a very small piece of Reality; they are not ALL of the Aspects of Winter or Summer, as they are but Avatars; but they are enough of them to damage Reality with their presence. The Queens are less, but they too can warp reality; thus are they there sparingly. Only the Lady and Knight encompass small enough Aspects that can be manifested on Earth.
hamiltond:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on June 26, 2014, 12:51:09 AM ---Here's my latest take on the Power structure for the Dresdenverse. It breaks down as Aspects of Reality. Here, an Aspect is Reality itself, whereas an Avatar is the faith/belief manifestation of that Aspect.
EVERYTHING
In the beginning, there was EVERYTHING.
From sheer boredom, EVERYTHING then split into two: Order, and Chaos
ORDER
(click to show/hide) - Order is vast, with varying degrees of permanence.
- The center of Order is Reality. It is where everything is governed by strict Laws.
- The rest of Order is the machine-works of Reality. It is governed by the same Laws, only of varying degrees.
- Order has Aspects, which are manifestations of its properties.
- Order consists of two Pantheons of Law: Divine Law, and Natural Law
- Divine Law is what Must Be, to keep Chaos from Order.
- Natural Law is what Is, to make Order of Chaos.
- Divine Law has Eternal Aspects, which serve its purpose.
- Archangels, Angels, and Divine Beings of other mythological pantheons belong to Divine Law.
- Natural Law has Eternal Aspects, which define its purpose.
- Spirits and Elemental Beings belong to Natural Law.
CHAOS
(click to show/hide) - Chaos is vast, with no rhyme or reason.
- The inner edge of Chaos is The Outside, which lies outside of Order.
- The Outside has some semblance of Order, in order to interact with it.
- The rest of Chaos is Empty Night, which is endless disorder and chaos without light.
- Chaos has its own Aspects, which are manifestations of its properties.
- These Aspects of Chaos exist only 'near' the border with Order.
- The Higher Aspects of Chaos are the Old Ones, ancient powerful beings.
- The Old Ones are served by Outsiders, which attack Order to restore Chaos.
ASPECTS of ORDER
(click to show/hide) - An Aspect is the Manifestation of the Purpose of a Law.
- A Divine Law exists as an Absolute, without change or compromise.
- As it is Absolute, an Aspect of a Divine Law is Immortal, Unchanging, and Unbending.
- A Natural Law exists as a product of Order, which is constantly in motion and change.
- As it is Malleable, an Aspect of Natural Law is influenced by faith and belief in Reality.
The Concept of Natural Aspects
(click to show/hide) - There is Gas
- There is Air
- There is Wind
- There is The Air Stream
- There is The Hurricane
- There is The Storm
- There is The Gale
- There is The Breeze
- There is The Calm
The Breeze is a small part of the sum of Air. It is unaware of its place in things; it only knows of its own existence. It is an Aspect of Air, but it is a separate manifestation of it.
Further, the Breeze is eternal, as long as the Wind blows. But humanity experiences the Breeze, and names it Aura. With faith and belief, Aura is manifested. She appears human, and thinks somewhat like a human. But she is an Avatar of the Aspect of the Breeze. She is not the Breeze itself, only a part of it. In a very small way, she is a part of the Wind as well, but only as the Breeze is part of the Wind.
Aeolus is the name given to all Winds. Thus Aeolus is born, as an Avatar of all Wind. Aeolus encompasses Breezes, but is not an Avatar of the Breeze; it is both greater and lesser than Aura.
The north wind is named Boreas, and thus is the Avatar Boreas created through faith and belief. Boreas is separate from Aeolus, but is an Avatar of the Aspect of the greater Aspect. He is weaker than Aeolus, but more powerfully defined in his own domain.
Applying it Loosely to The Winter Queens
(click to show/hide)Mother Winter is the Avatar of Winter. She is the bitter cold, the death of crops, the creep of ice, the fall of snow, and the dark of long night.
Winter Queen is the Avatar of Air and Darkness. She is the freezing wind and the dark of long night.
Winter Lady is the Avatar of the Cold Tundra. She is the icy plains.
Winter Knight is the Avatar of Winter's Hunger. He is the barren stores and desperate measures.
Each is an Avatar of an Aspect of Winter. The lesser mantles encompass fewer Aspects. Thus are they weaker. Winter's Hunger might seem more powerful than Cold Tundra, but it is dependent on life to suffer, whereas the Cold Tundra only requires cold and water. One is desperate and rash to act, whereas the other is not.
Applying it Loosely to Hecate
(click to show/hide)Mother Earth is life and death, summer and winter, joy and pain. Mother Earth is the earth, the air, and the seas.
Humanity looks upon Mother Earth, and gives her the name Hecate. Hecate is born, becoming the Avatar of Mother Earth. She is part of Mother Earth, but not all of it. Hecate is aware of herself, and her role. She is all-encompassing of the experiences on Earth. And she recognizes a threat from Outside.
Mother Winter is an Avatar of one of Hecate's Aspects. But she is not Hecate. Nor is Mother Summer. But all six Queens of Faerie combined are Avatars equal to the sum of the Avatar Hecate. Thus are they Hecate, but they are not. They know that they are Avatars of her Aspects, and recognize their role in Hecate's existence.
Why we'll never see Hecate
(click to show/hide)Hecate is above and beyond human perception. As she is every Aspect of Mother Earth, she is nearly equal to Mother Earth itself. Thus is she unable to manifest there. The Mothers' too are great in scope and power, to the point that they can but rarely manifest on Earth. To do so would to encompass all that they are in a very small piece of Reality; they are not ALL of the Aspects of Winter or Summer, as they are but Avatars; but they are enough of them to damage Reality with their presence. The Queens are less, but they too can warp reality; thus are they there sparingly. Only the Lady and Knight encompass small enough Aspects that can be manifested on Earth.
--- End quote ---
Epic.
So, if I understood you, the reason we won't see "Earth" is because metaphysical "weight" would have to great an effect on reality? Like a magic black hole?
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: hamiltond on June 26, 2014, 01:06:35 AM ---
Epic.
So, if I understood you, the reason we won't see "Earth" is because metaphysical "weight" would have to great an effect on reality? Like a magic black hole?
--- End quote ---
Basically. It wouldn't be a full two Earths trying to occupy the same space, but it'd be a massive part of Earth trying to occupy the same space as the real Earth.
Hecate, as an Avatar of Earth, trying to manifest, would only be able to do so around that which contained her Aspect: Earth itself. Her manifestation wouldn't be able to spread out across all of Reality and Order, like say, Uriel, who can spread his theoretical wings.
Serack:
Ok, so I'm grinding through a series reread and I just got through reading the scene where Harry is at the Stone Table and views the two Fae Queens with his Sight. There are aspects of that scene that really seem to mesh with this whole theory in several interesting ways.
First thing of notice is the Table itself:
--- Quote from: Summer Knight Ch. 23 ---a table, made of a massive slab of rock, the legs made of more stones as think as the pillars at Stonehenge. Writing writhed across the surface of the stone, runes that looked a little familiar. Norse, maybe? Some of them looked more like Egyptian. They seemed to take something from several different sources, leaving them unreadable. Lightning flashed again through the ground, and a wave of blue-white light flooded over the table, through the runes, lighting them like Las Vegas neon for a moment.
[/snip]
I stepped toward the Table and extended a hand. The air around it literally shook, pressing against my fingers, making my skin ripple visibly as though against a strong wind -- but I felt nothing. I touched the surface of the Table itself, and could feel the power in it buzzing through the flowing runes like electricity through high-voltage cables. The sensation engulfed my hand with sudden heat and violence, and I jerked my fingers back. They were numb, and the nails of the two that had touched the table were blackened at the edges. Wisps of smoke rose from them.
--- End quote ---
Here's a WoJ that mentions that table and thus gives a little snippet of background info on it: (link added by me)
--- Quote from: jimbutcher on April 08, 2009, 10:58:03 PM ---
--- Quote ---5. cowl with darkhallow - really? just a bunch of spirits...
--- End quote ---
If he'd succeeded, he'd have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some. He'd have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab. I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual? Because that's how the big E got so boss in the first place.
For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power? That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.
--- End quote ---
Soooo, what if the stone table is like one of the Amber style originating poles of reality, or a physical manifestation of a "Phenomenal Cosmic Power" in elemental form even more basic than entities like the Mothers/Queens/Ladies?
The Second thing that stuck out to me in this scene is a description of Harry's "Sight."
What is significant about it to me is that I have a lot of thoughts about how mortal memory is related to "GUCMT" considering Lea's comments in Ghost Story and Lash's comments in WN. It seems that Mortal memories and experiences are recorded in some level of existence beyond what Mortal's are normally cognizant of. However, Soulgazes not only transcend the normal mortal experience, but they become etched into the Mortal's mind in a way that can't be forgotten, and in a way that seems to erode at mortality/sanity.
It's almost like the flesh portion of a mortal is getting tied to that instance's Soulgaze empowered experience of the higher reality. Also, remember that being able to do a Soulgaze is a huge bench mark for defining a Wizard (there's a WoJ about that somewhere... it allows that it isn't the only qualifying factor though)
Which ties into a part of the last thing that really stuck out to me in this scene
Third, the description of the two Queen's as seen by Harry's sight:
Quite a bit of ink was spent describing these two immense powers (the two queens) on hills on opposite sides of the table that had energy emanating from each other and meeting across the field and creating patterns and stuff. This kind of fits in my idea of the table being/representing an upper echelon power, with the two Queens being lesser emanations of power wielded by conscious will (less free than when they were "mortal" maybe).
Even more interesting though is Harry’s reaction to being exposed to this power with his “Soulgaze” activated.
--- Quote ---=Summer Knight Ch. 23]It was power that had existed since the dawn of life, and would until its end. It was power that had cowed mortals into abject worship and terror before – and I finally understood why. I wasn’t a pawn of that kind of strength. I was an insect beside giants, a blade of grass before towering trees.
And there was a dreadful attraction in seeing that power, something in it that called to the magic in me, like to like, made me want to hurl myself into those flames, into that endless, icy cold. Moths look at bug zappers like I looked at the Queens of Faerie.
--- End quote ---
Harry’s magic feeling an affinity towards the power of the queens fits well with my concept of mortals being much lesser emanations from the higher powers.
I'd like to spend more time expressing these thoughts but I'm out of it at the moment.
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