The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection

Grand Unifying Cosmological Mantle Theory [Series spoilers including MM WoJs]

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Griffyn612:

--- Quote from: Serack on June 21, 2014, 02:27:20 PM ---Note:  I intend to add a section in reply #2 that expands the theorizing of Free Will's role in GUCMT.  I already edited in some of the ground work into the end of the main post.

--- End quote ---
By the way, if you need more consecutive responses for the theory, let me know, and I'll remove my post and add it back when you're done.

Serack:

--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on June 21, 2014, 02:50:01 PM ---By the way, if you need more consecutive responses for the theory, let me know, and I'll remove my post and add it back when you're done.

--- End quote ---

Hmmm, I hadn't been worried about that until you commented.  Considering Reply #2 is already at 7.5k/20k allowed and I am working on building two involved additions to it, maybe we should do that just in case. 

Please please please save your comments though and repost them or a new version of them.  They are quite thought invoking, and are certainly helping me work on this theory and make it more robust.

Griffyn612:
Transplant complete!

1) Is each Mantle an individual Aspect/Aeon?
2) Clearly Vadderrung has two different Mantles, and they remain separate from each other.  They don't seem to manifest at the same time, but they're held by the same being.  Is their compatibility due to their varied nature, and the WK/SK incompatibility due to their similar, opposing nature?   
3) Are human Souls a Mantle? From a certain viewpoint, a mortal shell/being is given an immortal power source to use for a time, and when the shell dies, the power source departs, continuing to exist elsewhere.  Its almost like a Mantle, albeit not apparently reused, at least in some beliefs.
4) If a Soul is an Aeon/Aspect, then wouldn't it mean that it would remain separate from the Mantle, and not be destroyed?  There's been speculation by some that a host's Soul is slowly absorbed by the Queens Mantles, merging with them.  But the Aeon/Aspect theory combined with the dual nature of Vadderrung's Mantles would imply that Aeons coexist and remain separate.  Would that be the same for Souls, or are those Aeon's too weak to survive alone?  I think there was a WoJ talking about how Mab lost her Soul.  Did it just move on, since the Mantle Aeon pushed it out?
5) So Mister is Ferro?  j/k
6) Seriously, why hasn't Harry used Mister in a joke yet?  "Mister Dresden?" "Mister Dresden is my cat.  Call me Harry."
7) Could the inherent incompatibility of the W/S Mantles be due to the fact they were one Aeon/Aspect, which was then unnaturally divided into six/eight, rather than "pooping" out sub-Aspects?  And if re-merging the WK/SK Mantles is such a bad thing, wouldn't it have been almost as bad for the SK Mantle to go to Winter in SK?  For that matter, any of the six/eight Fae Mantles joining with any of the opposing side would be bad.
8) Souls are the perfect memories and sums of the lives they've led.  But the mortal isn't aware or familiar with that perfect knowledge, nor even sure of its existence.  Could the same be said for the Mantles/Aeons and their hosts?  Upper echelon Aeons like Uriel might be self-aware of their Aeon/Aspect power and existence, explaining their inability to act; becoming aware of the situation in some way would limit their interaction.  The Queens are partly aware, on three different levels, which allows for them to interact with events on three different levels.  Mortals, being the least aware, are free to act.
9) In that sense, the whole purpose of mortals is to be the foot soldiers and pawns of upper level Aeons.  Since they are unable to act, everything has to be fought on mortal plane.  Obviously some battles are on other planes, like the Gates in the NN, but the eternal struggle between the two Poles is not fought at the wall, but on Earth.  The wall and Gates are simply to keep the game board from being overrun.
10) How does corruption play into the Aeon/Aspect theory?  If TWG is one Pole, or so high/close to the 'Order' Pole that Its practically the same thing, then everything It created/"pooped" would be a lighter/ordered Aspect like itself.  But clearly higher level Aeon/Aspects can be corrupted, like Lucifer.  Luci should have been very high up on the Lightside, but Fell to the Darkside.  Was that corruption due to something like Nemesis, or an inherent ability of Aeons/Aspects to change?
11) In SG, Uriel gave up his Grace, which in this theory, would be the equivalent of his Aeon.  Had Michael acted poorly while wielding it, what would have happened to the Grace/Aeon?  It doesn't seem like an Aeon could be destroyed, so it would have to go somewhere.  Would it simply Fall to where Lucifer and the other Fallen Aeons are kept?  Would Uriel remain a mortal, bearing only a mortal Soul?  Would he have no Soul?  And what about Luci?  When he Fell, did he take on a mortal form, to live out his days as a human, and his Aeon/Mantle/Grace was put away in a lockbox?  Or was did his Soul remain with the Aeon/Mantle/Grace? 
12) Is it the Soul that can be corrupted, rather than a higher level Aeon/Mantle/Grace?  Do all beings, high and low, have a base ingredient Soul, which can be manipulated?  And that Soul is what causes higher beings to Fall?  In theory, to be mortal, Uriel would have to have a mortal Soul.  If he had one, then Lucifer should have too, right?  So is that Soul still tied to the Aeon/Mantle/Grace of Lucifer wherever it is?  Is that twisted Soul what is causing the Grace to act out of character?  And if it were separated, would the Aeon/Mantle/Grace appear to be corrupted/Fallen, or would it return to its normal Lightside state?
13) Or did Uriel separate himself from his Grace on purpose, knowing that if he Fell, the Aeon/Mantle/Grace would remain unblemished, while only his mortal Soul would Fall?  If so, is the issue with the Fallen that they didn't separate from their Aeon/Mantle/Grace before being corrupted?  And is that corruption in both Soul and Grace, or only the Soul?  And would both need to be redeemed, or only one?  Clearly Uriel could separate from his Grace, but maybe he couldn't have separated Lucifer from his; its a decision of Self.  That would mean that if the Soul of Lucifer decided to relinquish its hold on its higher level Aeon/Mantle/Grace, would that power be restored to the Lightside, and could it be re-assigned to a new Soul?  A new Lucifer, on the side of good?
14) Taking it the other way, are the Outsiders upper level Aeons working without Souls, which is why they can't exist or interact with the mortal plane?  They should be restricted from reality, and unable to work there, just like the other Aeons.  But their nature is Chaos, from the other Pole, and therefore not following the rules is their natural state.  So if they get through, they would be pure Aeons existing where they shouldn't?

Serack:
[response transplant complete] :)

Heh, looks like you've been working on that response for a while :) 

I was already working on applying "GUCMT" to your #2 when you posted it.  I spent 5 hours last night cobbling these thoughts together from various lesser thoughts I have published in the past, and a collection of WoJ's I had squirreled away specifically for this Grand Theory topic. 

Now that I've gotten some sleep, I'm reexamining it and I decided to split off some of the applications into a new post, and expand that post to include some theorizing about multiple mantles on a single entity. 

By the way, since you've probably been working on your response for a while, be sure to review the major summary of the theory located at the top and bottom of the OP. (and my defining the acronym "GUCMT" to make for easier communication)

I'm still massaging this "Grand Theory" a bit.  And now to finish reading your response, and then work on the topic some more... or step away from the computer and do RL stuff :)

Griffyn612:
I think I'm currently stuck on a Cosmic Great Oak analogy for the Order pole of the dipole. 

(click to show/hide)The First Aeon is the Trunk.  It is so powerful it can't move.  So it created Branches.  Branches are smaller, so they can move somewhat.  But even they are limited in how much they can get about.  So they create Limbs.  Limbs are freer to move, but only in comparison to Branches.  For more freedom, Limbs create Twigs.  Those suckers can move even more, but not quite enough.  So Twigs create Leaves.  Those guys are crazy movable.  The downside is their lifespan, which is nothing compared to the other parts.  Sucks for us them.

One Branch may be TWG's pantheon.  Another may be the Greek/Roman pantheon.  A third could be the Hindi pantheon, and so on and so forth.   

I don't know what the Roots are.  Or what the soil, water, or light would be.  But the Pole for Chaos would most likely be a disease.

It can worm its way into the Leaves, causing them to fall.  If all the Leaves fall, the Tree will die.  Or it can worm its way into a Big Limb.  It can manage to kill off entire sections of the Tree like that. If it gets into a Branch, it could even cause it to Fall Off.

Of course, enough damage, between the roots, leaves, twigs, limbs, and branches, and the Tree dies.  Sure, if the tree dies, the disease has nothing to feed off of once its gone.  But that's the nature of Chaos, isn't it?  Madness beyond self-preservation? 
The point of that is that these Aeons/Mantles/Graces are nothing more than a part of the whole. 
(click to show/hide) - Uriel can't act directly because he's too big to move about.
 - Hecate may have been a Limb of the G/R Branch.  But she decided she wanted more movement, so rather than being a Limb, she split where she left the Branch, becoming six Twigs.  Two of the Twigs are almost big enough to be considered Limbs, another two are middling in size, and the last two are just Twigs.  It gave her more freedom to act, but at the cost of being a Greater Power/Limb.  She might not have ever been as big as Uriel, but now she's definitely less.
 - Hades was a Greater Limb of the Greek/Roman Branch.  He's currently greater in power than Hecate/The Queens, but can't do anything because of his position on the tree.
 - Harry's a big ol' Leaf that somehow ended up with a mini-Twig core.  He gets to thrash about, causing trouble not only for things around the tree, but probably the tree itself.

How does that analogy work into multiverse theory? 
(click to show/hide)Well, what if every "Decision" is a seed that falls from another tree.  That second tree grows up like the first, only with minor differences.  It spawns its own "Decision" seeds, until there's a great big Great Oak Forrest.

The only thing I can think of is that Uriel and other Cosmic forces are the Roots, rather than Branches.  And those Roots intertwine with those of Trees nearby in the Great Oak Forrest.  They're all interconnected. 

And the disease that is the Chaos Pole, the Outsiders/Old Ones/Nemesis/Black Magic/Corruption, is trying to kill every tree in the Forrest.

My only issue with the Dipole analogy is that it implies Balance.  I'm not sure that's the case.  Is your theory that the Outsiders are from the second Pole?  The unreality to reality?  The Chaos to Order?   Because I don't feel like they can be True Chaos.  If they were, the universes would be in really bad shape.

Chaos
(click to show/hide)There is no "chaos" in reality.  Everything is an order, even if we don't yet understand the order it follows.  If reality is Order, than everything Outside would be Chaos.

That means there's a lot of Chaos outside the Gates.  I'm fine with that theory, but if you bring Multiverses into it, then there's almost assuredly more Chaos at the Gates than there is within. 

The nature of Chaos is to not have a nature.  If Order says that only the Higher Aeons can span the Multiverse awareness, then Chaos would say "all of us can".  If Order says a man can't exist twice in the same universe, except under extreme situations, or in a Mirror-Mirror plot, then Chaos says "no, we're totally going to do that whenever we want".

If there were 10 universes side-by-side, Order would create 10 Gates to keep out the Chaos.  And Chaos would pull numbers from several of them to overwhelm each in turn.  That would be the nature of Chaos. 

The only saving grace for reality would be that Chaos doesn't get organized; its not in its nature either.

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