The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
SAZ:
--- Quote from: Mira on May 07, 2014, 08:21:04 PM --- Oh, but I love the old 1930's movie version with ten year old Mickey Rooney as Puck! The altered a little of it, but the story is still the same. Oh and the special effects for the time are really amazing. Otherwise yeah on stage version is also good..
--- End quote ---
Well - I never saw that one... will have to keep it in mind. Didn't Rooney just past this year?
Orbweaver:
--- Quote from: Serack on May 08, 2014, 12:58:51 AM ---As with most of the things I have ever posted, I feel like this is more a gathering of information than a theory, with the exceptions of a few minor conclusions at the end, and the stuff I said in the 1st reply.
The one link I can easily cite is that Jim has said that every single Fae has a bit of mortal in them... I'm not confident I understand what you are trying to work backwards towards from there though...
TCF and I are working together to do a major update to the WoJ compilation, and over the course of this work, several interesting WoJ's are coming forefront to my attention. Two interesting ones that in some ways seem to be contradictory in my mind, and in other ways build off each other in interesting ways are:
(click to show/hide)
And here is another, older WoJ that is also pertinent:
(click to show/hide)
What does this mean, and how does it apply to the origins of the Fae? Welllll, in terms of "the cosmic forces of the universe" they could be considered beings who "don't change" yet, apparently Mortal, Free Will driven choices can determine their prominence in reality, to the point of altering which forces in a particular version of reality hold sway over that reality...
--- End quote ---
Ok. You're stating that these two WOJ's seem to be pointing to the idea that Free Willed Choice is what determines who has control of a particular portion of reality, correct?
I am not certain this premise is correct, as there is also a WOJ that Ferrovax once held dominion over certain aspects of creation. Why that changed, how he got it, whether that covers all aspects in all of creation or just some of it, or if those aspects are still around is pure speculation at this point. I do not think there is any evidence pointing to Ferrovax having had Free Will itself, is there?
There may be an alternate explanation involving the same entity that supports the premise, though. It is stated that Dragons almost universally resent humanity for how they changed/altered things. (I'm terrible at locating quotes, but I'm hoping someone else might be able to dig them up).
--- Quote --- Now for the actual theorizing... This is dipping into my "Mantle Theory" ideas, something that I'm working hard to make a major post about in the next month or so.
So what if some of these choices made by those with free will that cause certain cosmic powers to come to prominence in reality also involve taking on some of the aspects, powers and responsibilities of these cosmic powers/entities. And one of the flavors of how this could have happened in the past, could have involved changing some of these pivotal mortals into Sidhe.
Now for another what-if, which IMO is not as pivotal but is a deliberate nod to some of what Orbweaver seems to be looking towards. What if there was another ancient human-like race hewn from the muck of Earth in parallel with the human race. This hypothetical race also possessed free will, and in making some of these reality deterministic choices they were the ones that morphed into the Sidhe and took on those roles and responsibilities.
In my opinion, this last what-if adds some unnecessary but interesting complexity to the DF back-story. I prefer to stick with the Sidhe originally being humans, but it certainly is a valid hypothesis.
Edit: I think I will be splicing some of these thoughts into the 1st reply.
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That's sort of what I was getting at, yes.
Serack:
--- Quote from: Orbweaver on May 08, 2014, 01:18:31 AM ---Ok. You're stating that these two WOJ's seem to be pointing to the idea that Free Willed Choice is what determines who has control of a particular portion of reality, correct?
I am not certain this premise is correct, as there is also a WOJ that Ferrovax once held dominion over certain aspects of creation. Why that changed, how he got it, whether that covers all aspects in all of creation or just some of it, or if those aspects are still around is pure speculation at this point. I do not think there is any evidence pointing to Ferrovax having had Free Will itself, is there?
--- End quote ---
First I'm not sure "who" is the best term. Although Jim does use the term "actual beings" he also throws around terms like "cosmic forces" when describing this stuff (and a lot of his WoJ's seem to use that term specifically for Mother Winter by the way, implying to me that she encompasses more than a "who"). But yah, other than some terminology quibbles (Besides "who" I'd also prefer something other than "control" maybe influence or authority over) that's pretty much my point, and in fact it is almost explicitly stated by the 3rd WoJ.
Second, there is a bit of a chicken and the egg in my theorizing in the form of the question of, "what free will first spun out the initial disposition of cosmic forces". Certainly not Humanity, but something I guess. From that perspective, maybe Fero came from an older, free willed race that predated the formation of Earth itself. Or maybe he is a construct created by something with free will to serve the purposes he did until further free will choices supplanted his significance. (I highly suspect that this whole free will determining the shape of reality and what cosmic forces have preeminence is an iterative process)
But yes some of those things you listed are speculation, but not all, and I'd say that using the WoJ's I quoted, my theory causes the rest to be very informed speculation. Don't agree with me? Here's the Fero WoJ. Defend that everything you described as speculation is.
--- Quote from: jimbutcher on April 08, 2009, 10:58:03 PM ---6. ferrovax - is this because he's the OLDEST dragon? (i thought it was an empty boast) or because he's a dragon?
Ferrovax feels absolutely no need to boast. It's because he /is/ a Dragon, large D, an elemental force of the cosmos. He isn't some kind of Smaug hanging around a nice apartment. He's a Dragon in a more Asian sense of the concept, a semi-divine being who was once given authority over various portions of the mortal universe, and who was responsible for their orderly procession. There /are/ Smauglike dragons (though not nearly as many now as there have been in the past, thanks George!) but they are essentially nothing but emissaries and servitors created in the image of the real thing.
Regardless of big D or little d, dragons almost universally resent humanity for usurping the balance of power in the world.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---There may be an alternate explanation involving the same entity that supports the premise, though. It is stated that Dragons almost universally resent humanity for how they changed/altered things. (I'm terrible at locating quotes, but I'm hoping someone else might be able to dig them up).
That's sort of what I was getting at, yes.
--- End quote ---
what same entity, which premise...
Mira:
--- Quote from: SAZ on May 08, 2014, 01:03:54 AM ---Well - I never saw that one... will have to keep it in mind. Didn't Rooney just past this year?
--- End quote ---
He died at the end of last month..
Serack:
I'd like to point out that in my OP, I also explicitly stated that when we get to Mother Winter's echelon, the rules seem to be different. Apparently there are some bedrock cosmic forces that have next to no turnover rate. However, these cosmic forces certainly have their influence affected by Humanity's choices. Granny doesn't have her walking stick any more, and that affects her ability to move about and influence things.
OTOH, her walking stick probably represents an aspect of her authority and power, and thus while wielded with a mortal will, that portion of her cosmic force is in some ways more directly influencing events on the ground as you might say.
Which sounds a bit like a mortal taking up power and responsibility over a certain aspect of reality and being influenced by that power and responsibility to the point that they morph into say, one of the Sidhe.
Good ole Granny is still around, and she hasn't "changed" but her direct influence over reality has, and in this hypothetical situation, we have a new immortal that has responsibility for/authority over an aspect of reality.
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