Enchanted Item questions

[Cadd]

In designing Enchanted Items for my Junior Warden, I've been thinking about skill-replacement effects. Searching the forum, I haven't managed to figure them out to my satisfaction, but I tend to not get along very well with forum search engines... Is it correct that the complexity is just "desired shift value of effect"? If I want to lift something like I have Superb (+5) Might it's a Complexity 5 ritual?

Enchanted Items can store Thaum Effects (though Strength=Complexity means it's usually the fairly small stuff). This means they can do skill replacements, right?

So what happens if I make a sword an Enchanted Item, but I don't really need it to hit harder, I really need it to hit - my actual Weapons skill... leaves something to be desired My base Item Strength is Great (+4), significantly higher than my Average (+1) Weapons.
If I store an effect to replace my Weapons skill for one attack with the sword, will that mean I just treat the attack as if the attack roll had resulted in a Great (+4) attack; or do I activate the item and then roll as if my Weapons was Great?

[S1C0]

Activate the potion , no rolls are necessary.. if it is strong enough for the effect you want otherwise it fails.

[Taran]

You are correct.  The complexity equals the skill you're replacing.

For a weapons skill of Great +4, that would be the full result of your attack.  So your enemy would dodge against 4.

With potions you can boost that with FP's and declarations...not sure about enchanted items, though.

[blackstaff67]

You might be better off making an item that creates a type of Spirit Sword and using Discipline to attack.  Bottom line, regardless of how you justify it, I'd have to say that you're going to have to make a weapon that isn't going to be wielded in the classic sense of using the Weapons skill.  As a GM m'self, you'd have a bit of trouble justifying it, given that you already have all these nifty spells and potions going for you. 

Now, a potion that artificially gives you a higher Weapons skill might be what you're looking for...

dammit, ninja'd!

That said, I'd love to see the ingredients for that potion.

[S1C0]

I use them with my potions , my gm says fate points are spent better on story stuff, of course a raw statistical boost never hurts trying to hurt.

[Haru]

A skill replacement acts like the result of a roll, not a skill itself. That means you don't roll on top of the skill replacement, you take it as it is.

Depending on how often you are going to need your sword to hit, might I suggest a different strategy, though? One point of refresh (without crafting specializations) will buy you 7 uses of the sword between milestones (or less uses with more power). If you want or need more, you could just take a stunt for the same price, that lets you wield the sword with your Performance/Craft skill, justified by saying that it is because it is a magic item. Assuming it is the character from the other thread.

Or you could do both. The stunt for general fighting purposes and one or two enchantments on the weapon that can hit pretty hard and without the risk of failure on roll.

[Cadd]

The wizard I'm making (a warden of the rush-teenagers-through-training generation, he's around 20) is built a little quirky. This will certainly make him "less effective", but I think that the way he's not optimized will be interesting.
So a couple of relevant details:

• He's an evocator; the only thaumaturgy that comes decently easy for him is Crafting. He does occasionally do Potions, but mostly he prefers to tinker with storing magic in items.
• He considers Foci to be a crutch, unhealthy to rely upon and only to be used for things you need to do but risk blowing up yourself or someone innocent if you try without them. This means he's not going to use foci for his main element (Air). Fire is an element he's been forced to study during Warden training, and was repeatedly reprimanded for his poor control of: thus for that he use a focus item.
  
  • He does not however look down on enchanting items to bring extra tricks to the field; that's being prepared for emergencies. The philosophical difference is really mostly that he sees Enchanted Items as "oh crap"-buttons while Foci are used all the time.
• He's also in (intermittent) training to become a goldsmith (it's been on hold a bit for his warden training, but he's juggling it now that he's actually been given the cloak). A lot of his items are either jewelry, or "common-metal" items adorned/inlayed with precious metals.
• He's not using a staff as a focus item (see above, regarding his stance on foci), but as the newbie wardens don't get swords, he feels he needs a good "symbol of authority" in addition to the cloak - besides, people expect a wizard to have a staff.
• If he's gonna carry a staff, he might as well put it to magical use!

My first though was to store a regular evocation attack into it (like Harry's force rings) but that felt off - a bit too much like it was a focus item after all. So then I though maybe a kinetic strike from actually hitting with the staff; makes it a bit more different - but I can't really fit Weapons at a high enough rank that it makes sense, and a Weapon:4 or 5 strike is pretty meaningless if it basically never connects!
That got me thinking that maybe he could every now and then (i.e. the once or twice per session) instead hit surer with the staff, instead of harder.

I haven't quite got the narrative done yet for the kind of spell that would be "stored", I wanted to figure out if it was feasible first.

Whatever effect I choose for the staff, I don't expect to sink more than maybe 2 slots into it; he's gonna have more items than just the staff and I'm not putting any extra refresh toward enchanted items yet. He has a refinement to show his evocation prowess, and a stunt I'm reluctant to swap out; that along with the base Wizard package puts him at -9 for a Submerged game.

[Haru]

If the staff is just supposed to be a symbol of authority, maybe that's exactly what it does. Smack one end on the ground along with an effort of will, and the staff starts to glow, or the earth below rumbles or sparks fly out or any number of things that, for the right crowd, can establish an air of authority. That would be a simple presence maneuver replacement spell. And I think with an enchanted item, you could even have a bit of wiggle room to choose the effect on casting rather than on creating the item, but you'll have to take that up with your GM.

Though the whole concept confuses me a bit at the moment.
What I would associate with a goldsmith is an eye for beauty and detail, the job is about finesse more than strength, a tiny amount of force aimed precisely where it has to be, in order to form the gold into a piece of jewelery. And he has a lot of different tools, because without them, he simply can not form the metal to begin with.

Translating that mind- and skill-set to an evocator would make him someone who used magic more like Luccio than Dresden, pin point laser rather than gout of flame. And he'd use lots and lots of tools to bring his magic into the desired form, namely focus items.

Don't get me wrong, your character can still work as he is, this just felt like too big a discrepancy, that I felt like pointing it out. If you've got a good explanation of why he would have no problem using tools in one aspect of his life, but totally rejects them in another part of his life, that's absolutely fine. Maybe he uses his enchanted items as tools, in a sense? A lot of his enchanted items could be maneuvers that you can tag on a subsequent evocation, which would sort of give you the tool aspect for his magic.

[Cadd]

Thank you for pointing out that "hole", because I hadn't really made the connection to high amount of tool use for goldsmithing to use of foci in magic. The reason he eschews foci are really two-fold, one out-of-story and one in-story.
The out-of-story reason is that the talented evocators we see don't really seem to use foci a lot. Neither Luccio nor Morgan utilizes them much in the books, and Harry says repeatedly that he uses foci for evocation because he's not good at it. My character is a lot more like Luccio's precision strikes in his natural element.
In-story, he simply never needed foci for Air evocation, wind and lightning both follow his will fairly effortlessly; it's really only Fire that is such a problem. (Mechanically, I've set his Discipline lower than might be expected, but instead he has control bonuses for Air and Spirit, this way Fire is drastically less controlled without his focus)

To him, the magic is the tool; the result is like the jewelry he makes: beautiful and what he aimed for. Using foci is a bit too much "using one tool to be able to use another tool". He also dislikes being dependent on objects to control his magic, objects that can be lost. I'll have to think it over though, because you're right - there is a discrepancy there, so it needs to be sorted out...

For the staff - you're probably right that I'm making it a bit bigger than needed; a presence or intimidation maneuver is probably right for it, solidifying it as something that make others take him seriously.


Addendum: After thinking a bit about it, I've come to the following conclusion:
In goldsmithing, he uses his tools, to shape the raw materials (precious metals) into his desired result (jewelry).
In his arcane life, he uses his tools (magic), to shape the raw materials (current reality) into his desired result (the final effect of the magic).
Hubris? Oh not at all!

The fact that fire is so difficult for him, and that he has to use tools there, shines a spotlight on the flaws in his logic in disdaining foci; so far this just makes him dislike both fire magic and foci more, but as he matures a bit he might come around to re-evaluate his stance.

Does this seem a bit more consistent? It's sort of moving the out-of-game inconsistency into the psyche of the character instead, setting up future development.

[narphoenix]

Thank you for pointing out that "hole", because I hadn't really made the connection to high amount of tool use for goldsmithing to use of foci in magic. The reason he eschews foci are really two-fold, one out-of-story and one in-story.
The out-of-story reason is that the talented evocators we see don't really seem to use foci a lot. Neither Luccio nor Morgan utilizes them much in the books, and Harry says repeatedly that he uses foci for evocation because he's not good at it. My character is a lot more like Luccio's precision strikes in his natural element.
In-story, he simply never needed foci for Air evocation, wind and lightning both follow his will fairly effortlessly; it's really only Fire that is such a problem. (Mechanically, I've set his Discipline lower than might be expected, but instead he has control bonuses for Air and Spirit, this way Fire is drastically less controlled without his focus)

To him, the magic is the tool; the result is like the jewelry he makes: beautiful and what he aimed for. Using foci is a bit too much "using one tool to be able to use another tool". He also dislikes being dependent on objects to control his magic, objects that can be lost. I'll have to think it over though, because you're right - there is a discrepancy there, so it needs to be sorted out...

For the staff - you're probably right that I'm making it a bit bigger than needed; a presence or intimidation maneuver is probably right for it, solidifying it as something that make others take him seriously.


Addendum: After thinking a bit about it, I've come to the following conclusion:
In goldsmithing, he uses his tools, to shape the raw materials (precious metals) into his desired result (jewelry).
In his arcane life, he uses his tools (magic), to shape the raw materials (current reality) into his desired result (the final effect of the magic).
Hubris? Oh not at all!

The fact that fire is so difficult for him, and that he has to use tools there, shines a spotlight on the flaws in his logic in disdaining foci; so far this just makes him dislike both fire magic and foci more, but as he matures a bit he might come around to re-evaluate his stance.

Does this seem a bit more consistent? It's sort of moving the out-of-game inconsistency into the psyche of the character instead, setting up future development.

I like all of this. It's very thorough and well oiled.

[Sanctaphrax]

The out-of-story reason is that the talented evocators we see don't really seem to use foci a lot. Neither Luccio nor Morgan utilizes them much in the books, and Harry says repeatedly that he uses foci for evocation because he's not good at it. My character is a lot more like Luccio's precision strikes in his natural element.

Perhaps, to emulate this aspect of the books, specializations and foci could be made to not stack. Someone like Harry might have Power specializations and control foci, someone like Luccio might rely entirely on specializations.

[Haru]

That's a very good explanation. If you look at it like that, it makes perfect sense. I like it.

The out-of-story reason is that the talented evocators we see don't really seem to use foci a lot. Neither Luccio nor Morgan utilizes them much in the books, and Harry says repeatedly that he uses foci for evocation because he's not good at it. My character is a lot more like Luccio's precision strikes in his natural element.

That might well be, because we see them from outside only. If you described Harry from outside when he triggers his kinetic rings, for example, you wouldn't read nothing about the ring, just that he raises his hand and suddenly the walls crumble. It could be the same with Luccio and Morgan when it comes to focus items.

[Cadd]

Perhaps, to emulate this aspect of the books, specializations and foci could be made to not stack. Someone like Harry might have Power specializations and control foci, someone like Luccio might rely entirely on specializations.

That's an interesting thought. The only issue I see is that the Specialization Pyramid will eventually conflict with focus use, but that's a way down the line and might not be so much of a problem. If you're that good/powerful you'll have a bit internalized of your "weak" side as well.

That might well be, because we see them from outside only. If you described Harry from outside when he triggers his kinetic rings, for example, you wouldn't read nothing about the ring, just that he raises his hand and suddenly the walls crumble. It could be the same with Luccio and Morgan when it comes to focus items.

Um, sure, it's possible; but rereading the part in Dead Beat which really is the only spot we see Morgan and Luccio fight I don't see the narrative supporting that. Coupled with Harry's talk of him using his rod, staff, sword-cane and bracelet because he's bad at control it really feels like the good evocators don't use foci. Harry does not use a lot of foci for thaumaturgy, which is his self-proclaimed* strong suit. There's really only the summoning circle and Little Chicago that fits the bill as Focus Item - most his thaumaturgy is done without those.

*Bob seems to agree, from his comments on Little Chicago...

[narphoenix]

Uh, Luccio /definitely/ uses foci. Harry several times talks about her blasting rod/staff.

[Cadd]

She has a staff in Turn Coat, but when does she employ it in fighting? In Dead Beat neither she nor Morgan has anything else in their hands than their Wardens Swords...