The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Harry's murders of Non-humans! (Cold Days spoilers)
blackstaff_:
--- Quote from: peregrine on November 19, 2013, 02:39:37 AM ---I don't know if he got any taint or not, but if he did, it was probably of the psychological variety rather than the metaphysical variety. Nothing magical about it, just that it's easy to get into the habit of solving your problems and making your points with violence. Doing it and having it work just encourages you to do it again.
--- End quote ---
I agree with what you are saying, but in that situation with all winter watching he had to do what he had to do. When around dangerous people, if they think you're weak, your done
peregrine:
It's not a terrible argument, I'm just thinking that it's irrelevant to the issue of magical taint or not.
Again, Harry got a bit of a stain from killing Justin, and "A bunch of people might hypothetically think I'm an easy target" is a lot less of a justification than "He's trying to kill me right this second!"
blackstaff_:
--- Quote from: peregrine on November 19, 2013, 03:41:38 AM ---It's not a terrible argument, I'm just thinking that it's irrelevant to the issue of magical taint or not.
Again, Harry got a bit of a stain from killing Justin, and "A bunch of people might hypothetically think I'm an easy target" is a lot less of a justification than "He's trying to kill me right this second!"
--- End quote ---
Touche' :)
Xandarth:
--- Quote from: blackstaff_ on November 19, 2013, 03:36:43 AM ---I agree with what you are saying, but in that situation with all winter watching he had to do what he had to do. When around dangerous people, if they think you're weak, your done
--- End quote ---
Still no need to kill. There's plenty you can do to someone short of killing them that would demonstrate your power to them.
Serack:
--- Quote from: SAZ on November 19, 2013, 02:38:53 AM ---http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,1879.msg37967.html#msg37967
The above is a WoJ about killing with magic. Human vs Faeries. Read down past the Kemmler stuff.
Also I could not locate what I thought was another WoJ that says in another way that the black magic taint only happens if you kill mortals/humans…
So... Serack I summon thee! (with cookies and hot coco). Is there another WoJ telling us it is basically taint- free to kill non humans with magic?
--- End quote ---
Here is what Jim said:
--- Quote from: jimbutcher on February 16, 2007, 07:39:01 PM ---
--- Quote ---Note also the killing law only applies to Humans.
You can kill as many faeries as you want with magic.
--- End quote ---
Bingo. It hardly seems fair, does it?
The Laws of Magic don't necessarily match up to the actual universal guidelines to how the universal power known as "magic" behaves.
The consequences for breaking the Laws of Magic don't all come from people wearing grey cloaks.
And none of it necessarily has anything to do with what is Right or Wrong.
Which exist. It's finding where they start or stop existing that's the hard part.
Jim
--- End quote ---
If you read it carefully though, Jim appears to have said that Council's Law doesn't necessarily reflect the true nature of how [dark] Magic can effect your mind (my way of rephrasing his comments in this context).
The below quoted post I made a couple weeks ago [edit, oh hey look, it's reply #26 of this very topic] goes through a lot of effort to outline how I think the books have explicitly shown how something like this (Harry killing non mortals) has effected him WRT the "actual universal guidelines to how the universal power known as "magic" behaves" Jim referred to in the above WoJ.
--- Quote from: Serack on November 05, 2013, 05:32:33 PM ---By the way, I think this quote from "Backup" is quite pertinant to this conversation: (btw, Backup is from Thomas' perspective)
(click to show/hide)
--- Quote from: Backup ---"Scratch one ghoul. My brother hates the creatures with a passion so pure that it's almost holy."
--- End quote ---
Edit: Some context for that quote from the White Night scene where that passion was born:
--- Quote from: WN ch 23 ---"Think they'll rat out their buddy?"
"If they think it'll save their lives?" I asked. In a heartbeat. Maybe less."
"Weasels," Ramirez muttered.
"They are what they are, man," I said. "There's no use in hating them for it. Just be glad we can use it to advantage. Let's go."
[snip]scene where Harry finds that a ghoul killed 2 16 year old's eating parts of the little girl and gets rather upset about it (understatement)[/snip]
The quality of mercy was not Harry.
[/snip]
"Never," I told it. "Never again."
Then I threw it down the shaft.
[/snip]
"Sixteen, Carlos," I said. "Sixteen. It had them for less than eight minutes."
[snip]An enraged Harry kicks one ghoul away to warn others not to pull these shenagans on his watch again and sets up a death trap for the other involving orange juce and desert ants[/snip]
moments later, Ramirez said, "What happened to not hating them?"
"Things change."
--- End quote ---
I think this is pertinant because it directly shows Harry's empathy for a class of magical beings getting destroyed in a fit of rage. To these beings Harry's the monster.
--- End quote ---
Note how this flashback happens near the end of the ghoul attack in the harbor in WN, and when he returns to the main narrative, Harry is going psychotic trying to strangle a goul, ignoring his own survival. He would have drown without Thomas rescuing him. Seems like a strong argument for the paradigm that even though killing non mortals isn't breaking the "Law" it can constitute black magic that warps the mind.
Also, the DFRPG forum mod made a truely excellent post on how "lawbreaking" can effect a character here, that I always recommend when people are discussing the topic of how "dark magic" effects the caster.
Finally, holy cow those DFRPG guys talk about law breaking a lot.
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