The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Harry's murders of Non-humans! (Cold Days spoilers)
Mira:
--- Quote from: blackstaff_ on November 19, 2013, 03:36:43 AM ---I agree with what you are saying, but in that situation with all winter watching he had to do what he had to do. When around dangerous people, if they think you're weak, your done
--- End quote ---
Prison yard mentality, call it the chicken yard mentality, pecking order etc... I grew up on a chicken ranch, my father refused to cage them, so they had nests, roosts, houses, and a huge yard to run in.. Anyway, what one observed over and over again, if one of the hens was perceived to be weak or ill by the others, the pecking order kicked in. The stronger chickens would peck the weaker one to death. Not saying they did this at once, but if the weak chicken wasn't removed the outcome was always the same.
What I am trying to say the Fae court has a pecking order, Harry had just recovered and perhaps perceived as weak by some of the Court members, it was either strike and prove his strength or be pecked at or undermined till he was killed.
--- Quote ---Still no need to kill. There's plenty you can do to someone short of killing them that would demonstrate your power to them.
--- End quote ---
Perhaps, if one is dealing with humans or humans with values. The Fae are not human, they have laws, but their laws not ours. Back to the real world for a moment, there are gangs very ruthless human gangs who demand of members a murder as right of passage.. I doubt that anything short of that would be considered a demonstration of power. The perspective member would then be in turn killed by the group.
SAZ:
Thanks Serack.
Does anyone think any of the rage and hate Harry is feeling in the above WK quote was just his own natural over developed “defend and avenge the children credo” happily enhanced by Lashiel’s shadow?
Knowing that I am bucking the trend, I am still unconvinced that killing non humans with magic results in a mystical black magic mind warping stain. As argued by others above, it seems that the normal psychological stress and strains of killing anything in a violent way is more than damaging in a normal real world way. Everyone is different and deals with violence and gruesome stuff differently, but the stuff Harry has seen in the books is more than enough to make him at least a candidate for any number of PTSD like issues… (Or at least I think so in my non professional mental health way of thinking).
So are Harry’s actions at his B-party a result of black magic warping? Sure in part, but let us not forget what he has gone though in life. It is not surprising Harry is getting darker and more violent. I suspect and hope that toward the end of the DF or the BAT Harry will begin to heal or find some balance.
peregrine:
Yeah, I imagine that the issue in WK wasn't dark magic, but Lash upping his temper and stuff.
ebliss1:
--- Quote ---Still no need to kill. There's plenty you can do to someone short of killing them that would demonstrate your power to them.
--- End quote ---
Mercy in the Winter Court is for the weak. And Mab will not stand for a weak Knight, since a Knight's weakness reflects on her. Mab expects her rules to be obeyed without question, and the penalty for breaking them is death. For her Knight, the "Fist of Mab" so to speak, those rules must be the same.
If Harry does anything less than what they have come to expect from their Queen, he is perceived as weak. If so, they will look to bring him down. If he were to, instead, horribly maim or cripple the Sidhe who challenged him, that Sidhe would spend an inordinate amount of time plotting vengeance. For Harry, dealing with predatory nobles who try to take advantage of his weakness, or fending off plots from his still-living victim would take time away from his duties, another thing Mab is less than thrilled about.
Also remember, as Harry observed in White Night among the Whampires, these Sidhe are effectively immortal. Death as a concept to them has a whole different meaning than it does to mortals. For them to risk death, and the millenia they would be throwing away as a result of coming out on the wrong side of the risk-reward ration, would represent a HUGE downside for them. With Harry's swift action, every Sidhe now has to weigh "torture a mortal for a few hours of fun and risk oblivion, or forgoe a few hours of fun and ensure thousands of years of existence".
Additionally, since these Sidhe are effectively immortal, the at-best couple centuries Harry would be around as Winter Knight will pass in the virtual blink of an eye.
So, no. In my opinion, anything short of what Harry did would have been a long-term disaster for him. Either he'd have doomed himself to non-stop attacks from the Winter Sidhe who would constantly test him for weakness, or Mab would have killed him outright for showing weakness in front of her entire Court.
Tami Seven:
--- Quote from: Serack on November 19, 2013, 11:47:24 AM ---Here is what Jim said:
Bingo. It hardly seems fair, does it?
The Laws of Magic don't necessarily match up to the actual universal guidelines to how the universal power known as "magic" behaves.
The consequences for breaking the Laws of Magic don't all come from people wearing grey cloaks.
And none of it necessarily has anything to do with what is Right or Wrong.
Which exist. It's finding where they start or stop existing that's the hard part.
Jim
If you read it carefully though, Jim appears to have said that Council's Law doesn't necessarily reflect the true nature of how [dark] Magic can effect your mind (my way of rephrasing his comments in this context).
The below quoted post I made a couple weeks ago [edit, oh hey look, it's reply #26 of this very topic] goes through a lot of effort to outline how I think the books have explicitly shown how something like this (Harry killing non mortals) has effected him WRT the "actual universal guidelines to how the universal power known as "magic" behaves" Jim referred to in the above WoJ.
[/spoiler]
Edit: Some context for that quote from the White Night scene where that passion was born:
I think this is pertinant because it directly shows Harry's empathy for a class of magical beings getting destroyed in a fit of rage. To these beings Harry's the monster.
Note how this flashback happens near the end of the ghoul attack in the harbor in WN, and when he returns to the main narrative, Harry is going psychotic trying to strangle a goul, ignoring his own survival. He would have drown without Thomas rescuing him. Seems like a strong argument for the paradigm that even though killing non mortals isn't breaking the "Law" it can constitute black magic that warps the mind.
Also, the DFRPG forum mod made a truely excellent post on how "lawbreaking" can effect a character here, that I always recommend when people are discussing the topic of how "dark magic" effects the caster.
Finally, holy cow those DFRPG guys talk about law breaking a lot.
--- End quote ---
I know the talk is about Fae/Sidhe but it applies to this conundrum that always bothered me.
If Harry killed Ebenezar with Magic, he'd be a lawbreaker, a black magic Warlock destined for the chopping block. It would also affect him in other ways since Eb is not only mortal but Family.
If Harry killed Thomas with Magic, no laws would be broken. He would not be considered a warlock and no retribution would be sought. Yet, in theory, it should also have an effect on him because Thomas is Family as well.
Thing is, Thomas has free will, has a soul, and has the potential to 'theoretically' become human. Despite that, he is fair game even to his own brother.
I can see why Margaret LeFay had issues with the Laws of Magic.
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