Newbies ask the darnest things

[Quantus]

What's the practical difference between the Skills Presence and Rapport?

From what I understand, the difference is one between passively having charm or the ability to get attention and actively being charming and getting attention. It's a fine line... and I think that Fate Core was wise in doing away with the distinction. For the Dresden Game the writers may have felt a need for the two different Skills... but I'm having trouble seeing it with my own eyes.

What do you guys think?

Thats about my take on it, but admittedly Ive never been in a game where the difference became a huge deal.  It is, to my mind, very similar to the distinction between the Charisma and Manipulation attributes in the White Wolf system, which is basically the same passive/innate vs conscious/active means of interacting with others.

[Haru]

I think it is like the difference between respecting someone and liking someone. Presence demands respect. You can go into a room, shout orders and people start doing what you say, maybe reluctantly, but they do it. Rapport is sort of the opposite, people like doing things for you, maybe even before you ask. And when you ask, you have that certain something in your voice that makes people want to do what you ask and more.

So I could see a military leader having high presence and low rapport. On the other hand a seductress could have high rapport, low presence.

And then there's Lara Raith, who has both skills as high as possible.

[Troy]

I think it is like the difference between respecting someone and liking someone. Presence demands respect. You can go into a room, shout orders and people start doing what you say, maybe reluctantly, but they do it. Rapport is sort of the opposite, people like doing things for you, maybe even before you ask. And when you ask, you have that certain something in your voice that makes people want to do what you ask and more.

So I could see a military leader having high presence and low rapport. On the other hand a seductress could have high rapport, low presence.

And then there's Lara Raith, who has both skills as high as possible.

I can see that but it leads me to ask... Why does it matter?
Either way, people are convinced to do as you want. The military leader doesn't care if you like him and the seductress doesn't care if you respect her. What happens is that people are swayed to see things your way or to do as you'd like them to do. Can't the Trappings and ... flavor ... of both skills be represented by a single Skill without affecting the game?

[Quantus]

A couple differences are the cross-over scenario, and the time involved.  The Presence Guy can walk into a room of complete strangers and get them to do what he wants, whereas the rapport guy needs to buy them a beer first, establishing said Rapport.  The people will naturally go out of their way to do things for the Rapport guy because they like him whether they are around or not, but the presence guy needs to be actively pushing them.  There are specific differences in ability and application.  One is a conscious thing, while the other is just a natural extension of your personality. 

Now, whether those differences require separate Skills from a rules balance POV rather than just as somethign that you need to keep in mind as part of an individual character's spin on some more all-encompassing skill, that depends more on your table's style I think.  It reminds me of the long d20 debates Ive seen over whether Hide and Move Silently should be combined into a generic Stealth Skill; the end always seemed to be situational

[Amelia Crane]

I always saw the difference between the two skills being about who they target rather than active vs. passive.  I always thought about Presence as being for dealing with groups of people and Rapport for being about dealing with individuals.  Because presence is used on groups rather than individuals, it covers what we think of as more general and passive interactions with people like reputation and social fortitude.  Rapport covers more specific and active interactions with people like dialogs and developing relationships.

Could the two skills be combined?  Maybe.  But you have to ask yourself how finely separated you want the skills to be.  There are other skills you could combine as well.  Or others you could split apart.

[Troy]

The question comes up because I'm hard pressed to think of a situation in which a PC would need to roll Presence. In play testing the game, every time this sort of thing comes up, it seems like it would be a Rapport roll.

[Haru]

That's why Rapport is the default skill there.

Any way you are convincing someone to do something for you, that's rapport, and it's the friendlier approach. Presence would be more demanding, I think.

And it's an active/passive thing as well, and that's not to be taken lightly. At a quick glance, you can get a lot done with presence, just by looking good or charismatic or something. If you have low rapport with that, people will quickly see that this is just a facade. So maybe not so much an active/passive thing, but a short/long term thing. Do you want something from someone now, without much fuss? Go the presence route. They might not like you after that, maybe they even tip someone off about you. Rapport takes time, you need to establish a connection first, that takes time. But those people will do a lot more for you, they will take risks for you, tell you if someone asked about you, etc.

It's different types of people skills, and for the DFRPG, I think it's good that they are the way they are.

[Sanctaphrax]

Presence gives you a good social stress track and lets you lead a group. Rapport is good for social attack and defence rolls.

Narratively they're similar, but mechanically they're distinct.

That being said, I would do away with both if I were writing the skill list.

[Bedurndurn]

So I could see a military leader having high presence and low rapport. On the other hand a seductress could have high rapport, low presence.

And then if you throw in Intimidation, there's the question of do people do what you want because they love you or because they fear you?

I still think Presence is kind of a bad skill because favoring Rapport over Presence gives you a more active character, which is way more entertaining in play.

[Quantus]

But rapport takes more time to establish, relative to Presence.  You can use Presence on complete strangers with little to no communication, whereas you kinda need to establish Rapport with people before you can influence them, and language barriers become a bigger concern, at least by my interpretation.

[Mr. Death]

Presence is, "Holy crap! Robert Downey Jr came into my restaurant! He's such a big star, I'm going to give him a special discount!"

Rapport is, "Robert Downey Jr. came into my restaurant last week, he talked to my kid about Iron Man for an hour, and he was just such a nice guy to everyone. He bought a cheeseburger but tipped a hundred bucks. Next time he comes in, he eats free."

Presence is about who you are, Rapport is about what you do.

[Taran]

@mr. Death:  nice

I use presence as a gauge to how people will treat the person initially.  Like how "initial reactions" work in dnd.

A poor presence might mean people are gruff and rude to you initially.  This might make rapport a bit tougher at first, but someone with a good rapport can win people over.

[Dr.FunLove]

@Mr.Death
I think that's the simplest way I've ever heard those broken down. Fantastic!

@Taran
I like that. Thinking to Odyssey, I think that is a concept I wouldn't mind including in the future. How would you work that? As a roll? As a modifier? Would it be best to use Rapport modified by Presence as a secondary skill?

[Taran]

@Taran
I like that. Thinking to Odyssey, I think that is a concept I wouldn't mind including in the future. How would you work that? As a roll? As a modifier? Would it be best to use Rapport modified by Presence as a secondary skill?

I'll read it up.  I think Presense modifies rapport where reputation is in play...so, Robert Downy Jr. would have an easier time winning people over because of his reputation. (don't have my book right now)

It might just be an rp thing.  You ask the guy a question, but he thinks you're a jerk-face so he refuses to answer thus forcing you to use rapport to get the info.

If he likes you initially, he might just answer questions without needing rapport at all.

In the presence skill, it mentions that you can put an aspect on yourself like "lookin' good" that you can tag for rapport.  If you fail that bad enough, it might turn into an aspect like, "stinky smelly jerk"

I always figured the GM would do this roll secretly or ask everyone to roll.  Someone with a high presence is going to average a higher roll and, at worse, people would be neutral to them.  Someone with a low presence are going to have people neutral and, at worse "hostile".

Like if you walk into a bar, I just might have everyone roll presence and see what happens.  The other option is just look at their base presence skill and have that dictate the way people interact with them.  Let the players choose if they want to set up maneuvers themselves.

This also plays into how Haru mentions Presense...someone with high presence can command people because people's initial reactions are to listen without having to be convinced (less rapport rolls and more presence rolls)

[Dr.FunLove]

@Taran
While I do think a lot of these social context scenarios can come down to roleplaying, socially-based characters want to make sure they get proper advantages for their investments. Good roleplaying always trumps good dice-rolling with me, but still. Something to ponder...