The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection

Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.

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Serack:

--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on May 14, 2013, 10:14:55 PM ---     As for Lash, her being pure soul makes partial sense to me, but I think she was only a part of the Lasciel soul-entity.  Lasciel probably took a piece of her own abundant soul energy, containing a snapshot of her knowledge and power, and slapped it onto Harry's soul and body.  Once there, it should have worked on Harry, until he eventually took up the coin, and the soul fragment returned to the whole.  Then, as I speculated above with the Mantles, Lasciel might give power and knowledge to the bearer, in return for their soul being devoured.  In this instance, it would likely be more like consumption/absorption with mal-intent, since Lasciel perceives herself as a greater being that had to bow to lesser beings. 
     But when Harry sealed away the coin, Lash didn't have a clear connection back to the whole Lasciel entity.  So she fed off of Harry's soul, very minutely, in a manner similar to Harry and Karrin swapping bits.  Enough that they influenced each other; Harry, with his quick temper while hosting Lash, and Lash becoming more understanding and open to change.
--- End quote ---

Actually, I'm not sure Lash consumed any of Harry's soul until the very end.  Part of this is because of the stuff Bob said about the missing bit of soul at the end of White Night (all quoted here in my ole Lash theory) implying to me that it was only then that some of his had been exchanged with Lash, but also partly because as the events of WN transpired, Lash's personification kept getting more and more ragged, implying to me that she was becoming... tattered possibly because of an identity crisis, but also possibly because the bit of soul/power she was running off of from the original entity was wearing thin. 


--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on May 14, 2013, 10:14:55 PM ---     Lash, being primarily a copy of a soul-entity, would likely have access to Harry's pure soul memories.  It would explain her perfect recall of things he'd seen and done.  But I think she also had knowledge that he was unaware of.  In the garage in PG, she basically ran sonar for him, despite the fact he couldn't draw on magic.  She wasn't pulling 100% from memory, because it was real time.  So I think the soul-memory thing explains most of it, but not all.

--- End quote ---

Actually the way I saw that, all the information that was projected into the illusion he was walking through in that scene was purely from memory, or was extrapolated from things he interacted with directly.  I believe there was a bottle he threw that either disappeared when it left his hand, or when it broke against another surface. 

Yes she had knowledge that did not source from Harry, like the significance of his birth, and the yogi trick to collapse his hand, but that was a resource she brought with her when she inhabited Harry.

TheCuriousFan:

--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on May 14, 2013, 10:14:55 PM --- According to WoJ, the bearer can influence the Mantle to some degree.  Countless homicidal WK's have probably added to the pre-existing darkness that would accompany a Mantle of Winter.

     There's a WoJ, I believe, talking about how Molly has a soul still, but will slowly lose it if she remains WL.  And he also says that Mab had a soul at one point, but he's not sure how much is left.  In the Dresdenverse, things aren't given for free.  The bearer of the Mantle gets a lot from the Mantle, and has to give something in return.  What if it's their soul?

--- End quote ---

Source for the WoJ about the bearer influencing the mantle please.

And here's the WoJ about Molly having a soul still.


--- Quote ---Rasins: The other question I had is *clears throat*, I'm trying to phrase this to not give too much away, when a human takes on the mantle of a Fae, do they automatically become Fae? Do they lose their soul?

Jim: Ok, do they automatically become Fae, do they lose their soul? The answer to that question is “sort of”. Um, it’s automatic, but not necessarily instant. Mab herself was human once, and she eventually became the, uh, the fun-loving Mab that we all know. So, a lot of it has to do with who you are when you go into it, because most of the Fae were human once. A lot were born as half-bloods and decided to become Fae and sort of automatically got their mantle for free, but all the other fae who were there, including the Erlking and several others, who were at one point humans….So, a lot of this is going to depend on who they might end up being, a lot of it depends on who they are going into it and what kind of will they have to maintain who they are. That’s going to be a big deal. I’m really looking forward to writing the next books so I can see what happens with Molly, ‘cause I’m really not sure yet, I have a vague idea of what’s gonna happen, because basically she just got handed the largest, unruliest crowd of little brothers and sisters to deal with ever.

*Audience laughter*

Jim: But on the other hand, she’s kinda cool with that. She’s used to that role. So anyway, we’ll have to see what happens to her, but, uh, there’s a lot of choice involved *unintelligible* as far as soul goes. Everybody always talks about souls as if it’s something you can have a receipt for, that if you lose it, then it’s just gone, and I don’t think souls work that way, I think that there’s too much attached to them, I think that there are too many things that consist of what your soul is, so I don’t think this is kinda trying to figure “did you lose your soul?”, because I think you can lose your soul without bothering to stop by any kind of supernatural beings whatsoever. You know, if you watch the news, you’ll see people who do that all the time. But yeah, as far as The Dresden Files goes, as far as eternal damnation, etc., goes, no I don’t think that’s as much an issue for Molly as yet, it could sometime though. Whether Mab has some kind of spark of a soul left or not, that’s one of those questions that would be very difficult to answer, and I’m probably not smart enough to answer it. But uh, probably, when you've gone so far down the road to pure power as Mab has, it’s hard to hang on to your soul. And it depends on how people who have been handed all this extra stuff deal with it, and what that’s going to do for them in the long run. And it’s one of those long run kind of things, meaning you’re going to be stuck like that for 2,000 years, you don’t really have to go bad tomorrow, you have plenty of time yet to start growing mold on your conscience and so on.
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http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36681.msg1825874.html#msg1825874

wizard nelson:

--- Quote --- Maybe it's not too far off to guess that some sort of soul exists within a Mantle itself.  Maybe not the poetic, pretty version of a soul that we're used to.  But maybe the technical, Dresdenverse soul that is a collection of memories, experience, knowledge, and self.
--- End quote ---
in response to that I want to quote some shamantics
--- Quote ---to understand shamanistic worldview, which is based on the premise that the visible world is pervaded by invisible forces and/or spirits which affect the lives of the living, the elements and nature in general. Everything/anything either has or has potential to gain awareness and/or consciousness.
--- End quote ---
Mantles are the spirit of something wrapped around an actual being?
--- Quote ---My interpretation of that would not be that the Mantle itself is malicious, or trying to do harm to the bearer.  It's just existing.  And the soul wouldn't be devoured or consumed and then disgarded.  It would become part of the collective Mantle.
--- End quote ---
Well that seems extreme>

Arjan:

--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on May 14, 2013, 10:14:55 PM ---     The problem lies, for me, in drawing the line at what is and isn't a Mantle, and whether a Mantle can be an non-sentient being in and of itself. 

--- End quote ---
Humans like to draw lines, to categorize things and it is an important tool for understanding things. Harry especially loves it but Vadderung gives an implicit warning in Cold Days:


--- Quote ---“Masks, mantles,” Kringle said. “What’s the difference?”
--- End quote ---

In Nature things often flow over into each other and if we see separate things the intermediate stages just have been removed. Drawing lines here is arbitrary.

I see a continuum. A mantle is a package of Spirit. Mab calls it power. All mantles we have seen have nature which expresses in emotions, mostly very basic emotions. Power is accessed through emotions, Harry's magic depends on emotions.

Magic comes from the spirit, power, life and in that sense every wizard has a mantle but that mantle has no autonomy, it is one with the wizards spirit. This is one side of the continuum.  But even then there are wizards who use their power and wizards who are used by their power, warlocks. I imagine you can create a spirit by splitting of part of your power like Bob did and give it autonomy.

In that sense a warlock is the second stage, he is possessed by his power, the nature of his power controls him.

Next step is the mantle proper. It is separate from the bearer but it has no name. But it can take form between bearers.
It has its own nature which results in emotional pressure for the bearer.

The white courts vampires hunger is another example. It has more autonomy but it still does not have a name, only a title though an individual white court vampire might give it a name and so give it extra autonomy.  To call it a symbiotic demon, a non passable mantle or a split personality is arbitrary, It is a wave/particle thing. Use them all if it improves your understanding.

A theory is a description of reality, not reality itself.

The other extreme is the demon that possesses you. The package of power has complete autonomy, a separate identity including a name (very important, Harry gave Lash a name and in the end she was not part of Lasciel anymore).

But of course the level of control the demon has over you (or you over the demon) can differ. In that sense you can describe the mantle as a possessing demon only the demon has very little autonomy and control.


--- Quote ---For example, we know that the Winter Knight mantle grants power, abilities, and knowledge.  According to WoJ, the bearer can influence the Mantle to some degree. 

--- End quote ---
That is because the bearer has Soul and soul can influence spirit. Humans can change the nature of other supernatural beings for that reason.

--- Quote ---Countless homicidal WK's have probably added to the pre-existing darkness that would accompany a Mantle of Winter. 

     How does that influence occur? 

--- End quote ---
Basically by faith which is an expression of the soul (I think, it is not normal magic coming from the spirit) . Faith can used directly for example by driving of vampires but it also changes nature. It is no accident that the nevernever entities take the forms designed by human imagination, the stories made and believed by humans.

--- Quote ---Well, in the Dresdenverse, we have at least one example of people swapping bits of their souls with each other when they're close (Harry and Karrin).  We've also got an example of a free willed person changing an eternal being (Harry and Lash).

--- End quote ---
But Harry did not give Lash a soul, he gave her autonomy. He did not give her free will which I connect with the human soul. The warlock ruled by his power/spirit does not have free will anymore.

--- Quote ---     Maybe it's not too far off to guess that some sort of soul exists within a Mantle itself.  Maybe not the poetic, pretty version of a soul that we're used to.  But maybe the technical, Dresdenverse soul that is a collection of memories, experience, knowledge, and self.

--- End quote ---
If the mantle had a soul it could change itself and I do not think so.

--- Quote --- 
     There's a WoJ, I believe, talking about how Molly has a soul still, but will slowly lose it if she remains WL.  And he also says that Mab had a soul at one point, but he's not sure how much is left.  In the Dresdenverse, things aren't given for free. 

--- End quote ---
The Sidhe don't do that but other creatures are free to give and to take things. More taking than giving though. :-)

--- Quote ---The bearer of the Mantle gets a lot from the Mantle, and has to give something in return.  What if it's their soul?
     I don't mean in a soul-eating way, or a eternal damnation sell-your-soul way.  I mean, what if the Mantle is some sort of non-sentient lifeform, which absorbs the soul of the Mantle bearer over time?  It would explain a lot; as the bearer takes more and more of the Mantle personality onto themselves, they lose that much of themselves.

--- End quote ---
The soul can not be taken away  (Word Of Bob in Ghost Story) , you loose it by making choices. You can get very bad choices though and the mantle gives you loads of opportunities to loose your soul.

--- Quote --- 
     My interpretation of that would not be that the Mantle itself is malicious, or trying to do harm to the bearer.  It's just existing. 

--- End quote ---
You can say that of a lot of things, including the shark that eats you. It depends on how much autonomy and intelligence the mantle has. Or Soul/Free will if you choose that point of view. I do not think the mantle has soul.

--- Quote ---And the soul wouldn't be devoured or consumed and then disgarded. 

--- End quote ---
But it can go on to what comes next. Whatever that may be.

--- Quote ---It would become part of the collective Mantle.
     My only fear in this is that it might support the crazy Mab=Molly theory subcategory, "Molly will be Mab, as Mab is every other Mab before her."

--- End quote ---
Maybe if she looses herself completely to the mantle but only the spirit, the soul would have gone already.

--- Quote ---     In that sense, a Darkhallow ceremony would have to absorb both (of my theoretical) soul and spirit of those killed in the process. 

--- End quote ---
I do not think it can. To loose your soul you have to make some sort of choice. Your spirit can just be taken like a white court vampire does.

--- Quote ---In doing so, it would merge all of that soul and spirit energy into a new, non-sentient entity, which would be bonded with the bearer like any other Mantle.  Then, if and when the bearer dies, the Mantle would continue to exist, and another could take it up, thus trading (unknowingly) their soul for power.
     The obvious argument against that is smaller Mantles, like the Santa mantle.  There's been theories banded about regarding Odin, and whether or not he's the "first" Odin, or just the current bearer of the Mantle of "Odin".  If he bears an Odin Mantle, then the conflict arises when there are two Mantles associated with one soul; who gets what? 

--- End quote ---
I do not think the mantle has a soul but in all cases the mantle is separate from the bearer so whatever the mantle absorbs becomes part of the mantle.


--- Quote ---     Good point about the Corpsetaker instance.  In that scene, she absorbed the spirits to herself, thus boosting her power.  Since the spirits wouldn't be anything truly pure in memory, they might not influence her. 
     Part of me wonders if that might also explain the body-swap process: the spirit and body remain, but the souls are swapped.

--- End quote ---
I think both spirit and soul are swapped. In ghost story a soul without a spirit like Harry was powerless to do anything. To take over a body you start a spiritual battle and you try to destroy or take over or push out the other persons spirit (taking over means consuming) and after the spiritual battle is won you can push out the soul. Your own spirit and soul will take residence.

Butters spirit was pushed out with his soul, Harry could see it.

--- Quote ---  With Luccio's soul in a new body, with a weaker and different magical spirit, she isn't able to do the same things she was able to do before.  For Corpsetaker, she jumped without a spirit (or much of one, at any rate) and body to attach to, so she ended up drifting as a soul.  With the consumption of all of those spirits, it gave her 2/3 of the recipe.

--- End quote ---
Lucio's spirit was defeated and her new body had a totally different wiring. When Harry was made a wizard by Justin he had headaches caused by rewiring his brain.

--- Quote --- 
     As for Lash, her being pure soul makes partial sense to me, but I think she was only a part of the Lasciel soul-entity.  Lasciel probably took a piece of her own abundant soul energy, containing a snapshot of her knowledge and power, and slapped it onto Harry's soul and body.  Once there, it should have worked on Harry, until he eventually took up the coin, and the soul fragment returned to the whole.  Then, as I speculated above with the Mantles, Lasciel might give power and knowledge to the bearer, in return for their soul being devoured.  In this instance, it would likely be more like consumption/absorption with mal-intent, since Lasciel perceives herself as a greater being that had to bow to lesser beings. 
     But when Harry sealed away the coin, Lash didn't have a clear connection back to the whole Lasciel entity.  So she fed off of Harry's soul, very minutely, in a manner similar to Harry and Karrin swapping bits.  Enough that they influenced each other; Harry, with his quick temper while hosting Lash, and Lash becoming more understanding and open to change.
     Lash, being primarily a copy of a soul-entity, would likely have access to Harry's pure soul memories.  It would explain her perfect recall of things he'd seen and done.  But I think she also had knowledge that he was unaware of.  In the garage in PG, she basically ran sonar for him, despite the fact he couldn't draw on magic.  She wasn't pulling 100% from memory, because it was real time.  So I think the soul-memory thing explains most of it, but not all.

--- End quote ---

wizard nelson:
Even the nickel heads don't eat whole souls,they get freedom eventually. Although probably in Hell, lacking real freedom. That may be part of it though. Simpler if its loss of soul from acting inhuman from an inhuman Mantle. Odin has soul Woj though, so it can't be the mantle itself taking tiths.
--- Quote ---The reason I don't think the souls are consumed by a Darkhallow is simple: the post-life pantheons wouldn't approve at all.  If someone can steal another's immortal soul to power themselves, then that would really piss off the other Powers.
--- End quote ---
It happens hence the Archangels in GS keeping an eye out. I actually think the opposite. Many things seem likely to get at the soul. WCV eat soul imo, thats why justine was so messed up and why killing is such a rush/boost and I've wondered about the death curse too. I mean how would anyone really know in the DV? Plus I haven't heard of alot of wizard ghosts. if consumed nothing departs, no ghost impression left.

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