The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
Phariah:
--- Quote from: wizard nelson on May 11, 2013, 02:04:05 PM ---He so another idea revived. I'd noticed that the darkhallow had very similar form to an exorcism, what with the vortex. I had the idea that the darkhallow was simply a really big reverse exorcism adding in some of the evil aspects of tearing apart Memories and eating them rather than just binding them. :o and I think I have the prof. Mort does the very thing I described, sans eating, with his guardian spirits. Perhaps most telling, he didn't just possess their knowledge but physical attributes combined. Kemmler must have expanded on this ectomantic trick. Small wag to round this line of thought off. The reason Mort is effected by the timeline fluctuations is because TTH goes back to learn the secrets of the hallow from him. More to come but i have to break it down.
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the Darkhallow is in no way similar to an exorcism. one devours spirits to gain power and the other drives a spirit/ demon from someone / or place. if it was a reverse exorcism it would be drawing spirits into people or a land to haunt it. the Darkhallow does not eat memories it devours the spirits of the dead and living. also it is not the same as Morts ability. darkhallow is the eating of souls for power while Mort uses the skills and knowledge of the spirits that he borrows.
wizard nelson:
--- Quote ---a reverse exorcism it would be drawing spirits into people
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Kinda like Mort does?
--- Quote ---the Darkhallow does not eat memories it devours the spirits of the dead and living.
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And as pointed out in GS and here, spirits are all memory.
--- Quote ---darkhallow is the eating of souls for power
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Wait I'm confused, so you think the DH eat spirits, living things or souls? Not the same.
--- Quote ---Mort uses the skills and knowledge of the spirits that he borrows.
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Also actual power as shown by having their literal combined strength. My point was one must combine spirit commanding, possession and devouring principles to invent a darkhallow. Same general idea's, all foung in GS. like tracking spells and heart ripping curses are both thaumaturgy, same principles, different intentions.
123456789blaaa:
This is some good stuff. Should this thread be put into the reference collection?
--- Quote from: Arjan on May 15, 2013, 07:45:04 AM ---Humans like to draw lines, to categorize things and it is an important tool for understanding things. Harry especially loves it but Vadderung gives an implicit warning in Cold Days:
In Nature things often flow over into each other and if we see separate things the intermediate stages just have been removed. Drawing lines here is arbitrary.
I see a continuum. A mantle is a package of Spirit. Mab calls it power. All mantles we have seen have nature which expresses in emotions, mostly very basic emotions. Power is accessed through emotions, Harry's magic depends on emotions.
Magic comes from the spirit, power, life and in that sense every wizard has a mantle but that mantle has no autonomy, it is one with the wizards spirit. This is one side of the continuum. But even then there are wizards who use their power and wizards who are used by their power, warlocks. I imagine you can create a spirit by splitting of part of your power like Bob did and give it autonomy.
In that sense a warlock is the second stage, he is possessed by his power, the nature of his power controls him.
Next step is the mantle proper. It is separate from the bearer but it has no name. But it can take form between bearers.
It has its own nature which results in emotional pressure for the bearer.
The white courts vampires hunger is another example. It has more autonomy but it still does not have a name, only a title though an individual white court vampire might give it a name and so give it extra autonomy. To call it a symbiotic demon, a non passable mantle or a split personality is arbitrary, It is a wave/particle thing. Use them all if it improves your understanding.
A theory is a description of reality, not reality itself.
The other extreme is the demon that possesses you. The package of power has complete autonomy, a separate identity including a name (very important, Harry gave Lash a name and in the end she was not part of Lasciel anymore).
But of course the level of control the demon has over you (or you over the demon) can differ. In that sense you can describe the mantle as a possessing demon only the demon has very little autonomy and control.
<snip>
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Jim chose to use the word Mantle for a reason. The word itself has an RL meaning. YOu have taken the word and made its definition so broad as to be almost useless. Griffin had a good post expressing my thoughts on Mantles:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on April 11, 2013, 03:54:08 PM ---
--- Quote from: maleclypse ---I'm not sure that I agree with the way everyone uses the word mantle. For instance, I'm not sure the Gatekeeper is a mantle, just as I'm sure that "The Warden" (of demonreach) is not a mantle in the same way that Knight of Summer is a mantle or lady Winter is a mantle. The mantles seem like things that flow to the next best closest candidate available, whereas "The Warden" or "the gatekeeper" can be killed and assuming that no one has been trained to take up that title and performs the neccesary rituals then there is no Warden or Gatekeeper until someone chooses to fill that position. I think if we were ever to meet the Fates we would see that they are mantles that flow to keep reality from unhinging, whereas The Warden and The Gatekeeper are titles that convey duties chosen and accepted like The Merlin. Does that make sense?
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First, the technical definition.
--- Quote ---Definition of MANTLE
1
a : a loose sleeveless garment worn over other clothes : cloak
b : a figurative cloak symbolizing preeminence or authority <accepted the mantle of leadership>
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Now, in the Dresdenverse, there may be roles or jobs that are called Mantles, because they impart a certain authority. I don't think that the Gatekeeper 'mantle' of authority bestows any particular power on the person in the position; but there are benefits, such as using something like the crystal eye, and apparently living for centuries longer than other wizards.
Other mantles serve as both mantles of authority and mantles of power. Specifically, the Fae mantles (Mother,Queen,Lady,Knight) all come with both authority and power. The power is linked to what seems to be a non-sentient symbiotic entity that joins with a host, thus providing the entity a way of interacting with the world, and providing the host with power and ability.
Some mantles aren't particularly clear about whether or not there's a power or ability granted. There's been some debate about whether or not the mantle of Merlin of the Council comes with some boost. Clearly the Blackstaff mantle does, as it means that the person is the bearer of the staff. But it's not the title itself granting the power; the title follows the ownership.
There are also theoretical mantles that some on the site here speculate on. Some like to think that old gods and demi-gods had a sort of mantle that others can take up to assume that role. Odin being Santa is confusing; is he the original Santa, since Santa Claus is somewhat based on the Odin legend? Or is it another Fae mantle that someone had, and then took the mantle public with good publicity years ago? Is Odin himself merely an elevated mortal wizard that became an immortal by obtaining a mantle previously possessed by Woden? Or is he the original Woden? It's all speculative, which is where people get confused about where individual power begins and mantle power ends.
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A White Court vamps demon is not a Mantle because it isn't a role. Same thing with most of your other examples.
Cozarkian:
--- Quote from: wizard nelson on May 15, 2013, 11:41:21 AM ---Kinda like Mort does?
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I'm not sure Mort can draw them in. It looked like ghosts basically automatically possess someone whenever they occupy the same space. Since Mort is a powerful ectomancer, he basically reverses the possession and takes control of the ghost. I don't recall him drawing a ghost in from across the room, but since he can see the ghost, he can basically possess it as easily as it can possess him.
Harry possessed Molly too, but rather than taking forcible control of her body he asked permission. Corpsetaker's ability was essentially leaving her body, possessing another individual, and then kicking the old spirit out. I would have been curious to see a Mort v. Corpsetaker fight. Corpsetaker's power seemed to depend mostly on mental magic, but that doesn't mean ectomancy isn't involved and/or wouldn't be superior for that use.
TheCuriousFan:
--- Quote from: Cozarkian on May 15, 2013, 04:43:55 PM ---I'm not sure Mort can draw them in. It looked like ghosts basically automatically possess someone whenever they occupy the same space. Since Mort is a powerful ectomancer, he basically reverses the possession and takes control of the ghost. I don't recall him drawing a ghost in from across the room, but since he can see the ghost, he can basically possess it as easily as it can possess him.
Harry possessed Molly too, but rather than taking forcible control of her body he asked permission. Corpsetaker's ability was essentially leaving her body, possessing another individual, and then kicking the old spirit out. I would have been curious to see a Mort v. Corpsetaker fight. Corpsetaker's power seemed to depend mostly on mental magic, but that doesn't mean ectomancy isn't involved and/or wouldn't be superior for that use.
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Wasn't Harry really odd for being able to possess people?
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