The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
cedz:
--- Quote from: peregrine on May 13, 2013, 11:58:46 PM ---Also, a little bit of the Erlking is in every weapon used to hunt, so every kill gives him more power.
--- End quote ---
Is that confirmed in the books or WOJ? If it is, that really is interesting especially if you consider the hexenwolf belts and whether they were created by the Erlking or not.
peregrine:
It's as confirmed as some of the other statements here.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on May 11, 2013, 11:12:27 PM ---We've seen at least two successful ghost-juice uses, one failed, and one non-mortal similar situation.
Mort's Ghost Lease
When Mort uses Harry's ghost, he gains his power and knowledge. But he doesn't 'consume' it, leaving it as a separate entity from himself. Harry detaches from Mort, and there's no reason to believe that Mort retained any power or knowledge from the exchange. He temporarily borrows it, but doesn't join it to himself.
Harry's Nightmare Meal
When the Nightmare ate part of Harry's 'chi' in GP, he consumed it and made it part of himself. He gained the power and knowledge which Harry had. When Harry ate the Nightmare, he regained his own power and knowledge, along with that which Nightmare had. He proves this by using dark power and spells which he didn't know previously. And he never releases that energy to reform as the Nightmare; he consumed it, used it, and apparently burned up whatever energy wasn't originally his until it was gone.
Darkhallow
I imagine the Darkhallow is more like how Harry & the Nightmare consumed each other. The person that consumes the power of the vortex is taking in the power and knowledge of all of those spirits, and joining it to himself. The difference between the two is location. The Darkhallow ritual takes place in the real world by drawing ghosts to the real world and bonding them to a real body. Harry & NM both created/attacked in pocket dimensions in the NN, which allowed them to attack and consume the pure spiritual energy of the other. No vortex needed.
--- End quote ---
I think the big difference between the nightmare meal and a mantle is when you consume another spirit it becomes part of yourself, you can get tainted or mad if you consume the wrong spirit.
A Mantle is a way to reduce that risk by keeping the extra power as a seperate entity. We see that some people are better than others in seperating themselves from their mantles but they all do otherwise they end up crazy like Lilly.
I think the memories are stored both in the spirit and the soul and that is how Harry could be rebuild after he lost most of his spiritual essence. Most spirits are without soul but I think beings like Harry are not entirely unknown. Corpstaker was one and Kemmler must have been one several times. It is the only way a necromancer can return from the dead.
The deads in a darkhallow would be usefull for the wizard performing it in several ways, not the least because it frees their spirits to be consumed with the rest of the ghosts.
Serack:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on May 11, 2013, 11:12:27 PM ---We've seen at least two successful ghost-juice uses, one failed, and one non-mortal similar situation.
Mort's Ghost Lease
When Mort uses Harry's ghost, he gains his power and knowledge. But he doesn't 'consume' it, leaving it as a separate entity from himself. Harry detaches from Mort, and there's no reason to believe that Mort retained any power or knowledge from the exchange. He temporarily borrows it, but doesn't join it to himself.
Harry's Nightmare Meal
When the Nightmare ate part of Harry's 'chi' in GP, he consumed it and made it part of himself. He gained the power and knowledge which Harry had. When Harry ate the Nightmare, he regained his own power and knowledge, along with that which Nightmare had. He proves this by using dark power and spells which he didn't know previously. And he never releases that energy to reform as the Nightmare; he consumed it, used it, and apparently burned up whatever energy wasn't originally his until it was gone.
Darkhallow
I imagine the Darkhallow is more like how Harry & the Nightmare consumed each other. The person that consumes the power of the vortex is taking in the power and knowledge of all of those spirits, and joining it to himself. The difference between the two is location. The Darkhallow ritual takes place in the real world by drawing ghosts to the real world and bonding them to a real body. Harry & NM both created/attacked in pocket dimensions in the NN, which allowed them to attack and consume the pure spiritual energy of the other. No vortex needed.
Death by Darkhallow
The way I reason out life in the Dresdenverse is that there are three parts: body, soul, and spirit. The body is physical, and can die. The soul is power/knowledge inherent to the individual, and is eternal. The spirit is natural power tied to the magic field in the Dresdenverse. It can contain some knowledge, but it's not all knowledge like the soul. When someone dies, their soul would go on to whatever domain they associated with. The body would break down, and rejoin nature. The spirit would rejoin the magic field, unless a ghost is formed of it instead. In traumatic death, the spirit doesn't rebond with the magic field because it's unsettled. Instead, it retains partial knowledge from the soul, enough to retain part of it's old living identity. When we see a ghost in the Dresdenverse, it's 100% spirit. Except for Harry, who I think was a spirit/soul combo. At the end, Harry's spirit was all but burned off, which is why Mort couldn't see him, but he still existed as soul. And Mort can't see souls, because he couldn't see Harry or Uriel.
In this interpretation of mine, the Darkhallow would effectively rip the spirit from all of the living things in range. The body would die, and I believe that the soul would move on like it normally would. The spirit, instead of rejoining the magic field, would be merged with the Hallower's spirit, thus increasing their power. Any significant knowledge would also transfer, although I think generic knowledge (like where an old lady keeps her spare key) would be disgarded by the spirit, and only be retained by the soul.
The reason I don't think the souls are consumed by a Darkhallow is simple: the post-life pantheons wouldn't approve at all. If someone can steal another's immortal soul to power themselves, then that would really piss off the other Powers.
Bob's Ride-along
We've also seen a form of spirit merging with Bob's ride-alongs. In the Dresdenverse, I'm assuming animal's have souls, or at least some do. Mouse would seem to have a soul. Maybe Mister does, and maybe he doesn't. Tara West wouldn't seem to have a soul, because there was no soulgaze; but that may be because she either has no soul, or it's so different from Harry's that there's no connection.
So how could creatures without souls, ranging between animals and Fae, use magic? Because they're mostly powered by spirit, which is the connection to the natural magic field thingy. A Fae is probably mostly spirit, with either a fabricated or malleable body, and either little to no soul. For Bob, he doesn't have a form, but the motes that make him are his body; it's just not solid enough to exist on its own.
When Bob goes on a ride-along, his spirit is temporarily bonded with that of the host; Bob can likely see the knowledge in them, and maybe even tap their power like Mort can. But he keeps himself separate, without one consuming the other. It's very similar to what Mort does. The question is whether or not Bob could go on ride-along with Harry and take over, or if Harry could tap into Bob's power and knowledge during ride-along. So it may be the same, and it may be different.
Creating a Mantle
I'm not sure about how to create a Mantle, since it's not fully understood so far. It would make sense that a Darkhallow would create a massive spiritual power-up, but I'm not sure that there'd be enough of a singular identity to create a NEW eternal mantle. I think in the DB Darkhallow, if the Erlking had been in the field, his power and mantle would have been pulled up along with everyone else. In that sense, the Hallower would become the new Erlking, which would be A mantle; but I'm not sure if the new power would be given to the Erlking mantle itself, or if it would still be unique to the Hallower. When the Hallower died, I'm not sure that the power obtained in the Darkhallow would go to the new Erlking.
I think Mantle creation would require more power than a Darkhallow, even on the scale we saw before. Maybe I'm off base, especially if it does in fact consume souls. But I imagine a Darkhallow Ascended entity would be near-immortal, with potential to gather further power to themselves, and eventually create a mantle.
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This post is so full of awesome, especially the section analyzing differences between soul and spirit and body under the Darkhallow heading.
I have 2 comments to make.
We have another example of spirit consumption when Corpses Taker ate all the mad spirits near the end of GS.
Also, I have some interesting takes on how the soul works. They are partially shaped by something Lea said to Harry while he was recounting his fight with HHWB
--- Quote from: GS ch. 32 ---"I . . . Godmother, I've heard it said that ghosts are memories."
"Indeed," Lea said, nodding.
"Are the memories truth?"
[/snip]
They are the facts, the events as you experienced them."
I frowned. "I never really had a clear recollection of exactly what the thing said to me," I said "I mean, that blow to the head gave me a headache for days."
"Ah yes," Lea said. "I remember your pain."
She would. "Yeah, uh. Anyway. I'm remembering the conversation now, word for word. Is that real? Or is it something that guy in black made up to fill in the blanks?"
"They are your memories," she said, "the record, the impression of what you lived. Your brain isn't the only place they are stored- it is, in truth, often a poor facility for such a purpose." She paused to consider her next words and then spread her hands, palm up, an odd light in her eyes. "It is the nature of the universe that things remain. Nothing ever disappears completely. The very sound of Creation still echoes throughout the vast darkness: The universe remembers. You are currently free of the shackles of mortality. Your limited brain no longer impedes access to that record. The only blocks to your memory are those you allow to be."
--- End quote ---
This conversation immediately made me think of some of Harry's experiences with Lash/Lasciel. She made some similar comments about Harry's mortality limiting his perceptions on things, and notibly also had access to perfect recollection of things Harry had experienced. Also remember how Bob said that angelic types are pretty much all soul and nothing else. So either the eternal soul is these memories, or has a facility that can access them perfectly. When I was reading Dead Beat, I always thought Lash was picking/using Harry's wetware (brain) for the photographic memories she was able to recall, but after reading GS it seemed that as an angelic being she was able to view Harry's soul directly and pick the information from that.
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Arjan on May 14, 2013, 02:10:27 PM ---I think the big difference between the nightmare meal and a mantle is when you consume another spirit it becomes part of yourself, you can get tainted or mad if you consume the wrong spirit.
A Mantle is a way to reduce that risk by keeping the extra power as a seperate entity. We see that some people are better than others in seperating themselves from their mantles but they all do otherwise they end up crazy like Lilly.
I think the memories are stored both in the spirit and the soul and that is how Harry could be rebuild after he lost most of his spiritual essence. Most spirits are without soul but I think beings like Harry are not entirely unknown. Corpstaker was one and Kemmler must have been one several times. It is the only way a necromancer can return from the dead.
The deads in a darkhallow would be usefull for the wizard performing it in several ways, not the least because it frees their spirits to be consumed with the rest of the ghosts.
--- End quote ---
The problem lies, for me, in drawing the line at what is and isn't a Mantle, and whether a Mantle can be an non-sentient being in and of itself. For example, we know that the Winter Knight mantle grants power, abilities, and knowledge. According to WoJ, the bearer can influence the Mantle to some degree. Countless homicidal WK's have probably added to the pre-existing darkness that would accompany a Mantle of Winter.
How does that influence occur? Well, in the Dresdenverse, we have at least one example of people swapping bits of their souls with each other when they're close (Harry and Karrin). We've also got an example of a free willed person changing an eternal being (Harry and Lash).
Maybe it's not too far off to guess that some sort of soul exists within a Mantle itself. Maybe not the poetic, pretty version of a soul that we're used to. But maybe the technical, Dresdenverse soul that is a collection of memories, experience, knowledge, and self.
There's a WoJ, I believe, talking about how Molly has a soul still, but will slowly lose it if she remains WL. And he also says that Mab had a soul at one point, but he's not sure how much is left. In the Dresdenverse, things aren't given for free. The bearer of the Mantle gets a lot from the Mantle, and has to give something in return. What if it's their soul?
I don't mean in a soul-eating way, or a eternal damnation sell-your-soul way. I mean, what if the Mantle is some sort of non-sentient lifeform, which absorbs the soul of the Mantle bearer over time? It would explain a lot; as the bearer takes more and more of the Mantle personality onto themselves, they lose that much of themselves.
My interpretation of that would not be that the Mantle itself is malicious, or trying to do harm to the bearer. It's just existing. And the soul wouldn't be devoured or consumed and then disgarded. It would become part of the collective Mantle.
My only fear in this is that it might support the crazy Mab=Molly theory subcategory, "Molly will be Mab, as Mab is every other Mab before her."
In that sense, a Darkhallow ceremony would have to absorb both (of my theoretical) soul and spirit of those killed in the process. In doing so, it would merge all of that soul and spirit energy into a new, non-sentient entity, which would be bonded with the bearer like any other Mantle. Then, if and when the bearer dies, the Mantle would continue to exist, and another could take it up, thus trading (unknowingly) their soul for power.
The obvious argument against that is smaller Mantles, like the Santa mantle. There's been theories banded about regarding Odin, and whether or not he's the "first" Odin, or just the current bearer of the Mantle of "Odin". If he bears an Odin Mantle, then the conflict arises when there are two Mantles associated with one soul; who gets what?
--- Quote from: Serack on May 14, 2013, 04:17:13 PM ---This post is so full of awesome, especially the section analyzing differences between soul and spirit and body under the Darkhallow heading.
I have 2 comments to make.
We have another example of spirit consumption when Corpses Taker ate all the mad spirits near the end of GS.
Also, I have some interesting takes on how the soul works. They are partially shaped by something Lea said to Harry while he was recounting his fight with HHWB
This conversation immediately made me think of some of Harry's experiences with Lash/Lasciel. She made some similar comments about Harry's mortality limiting his perceptions on things, and notibly also had access to perfect recollection of things Harry had experienced. Also remember how Bob said that angelic types are pretty much all soul and nothing else. So either the eternal soul is these memories, or has a facility that can access them perfectly. When I was reading Dead Beat, I always thought Lash was picking/using Harry's wetware (brain) for the photographic memories she was able to recall, but after reading GS it seemed that as an angelic being she was able to view Harry's soul directly and pick the information from that.
--- End quote ---
Good point about the Corpsetaker instance. In that scene, she absorbed the spirits to herself, thus boosting her power. Since the spirits wouldn't be anything truly pure in memory, they might not influence her.
Part of me wonders if that might also explain the body-swap process: the spirit and body remain, but the souls are swapped. With Luccio's soul in a new body, with a weaker and different magical spirit, she isn't able to do the same things she was able to do before. For Corpsetaker, she jumped without a spirit (or much of one, at any rate) and body to attach to, so she ended up drifting as a soul. With the consumption of all of those spirits, it gave her 2/3 of the recipe.
As for Lash, her being pure soul makes partial sense to me, but I think she was only a part of the Lasciel soul-entity. Lasciel probably took a piece of her own abundant soul energy, containing a snapshot of her knowledge and power, and slapped it onto Harry's soul and body. Once there, it should have worked on Harry, until he eventually took up the coin, and the soul fragment returned to the whole. Then, as I speculated above with the Mantles, Lasciel might give power and knowledge to the bearer, in return for their soul being devoured. In this instance, it would likely be more like consumption/absorption with mal-intent, since Lasciel perceives herself as a greater being that had to bow to lesser beings.
But when Harry sealed away the coin, Lash didn't have a clear connection back to the whole Lasciel entity. So she fed off of Harry's soul, very minutely, in a manner similar to Harry and Karrin swapping bits. Enough that they influenced each other; Harry, with his quick temper while hosting Lash, and Lash becoming more understanding and open to change.
Lash, being primarily a copy of a soul-entity, would likely have access to Harry's pure soul memories. It would explain her perfect recall of things he'd seen and done. But I think she also had knowledge that he was unaware of. In the garage in PG, she basically ran sonar for him, despite the fact he couldn't draw on magic. She wasn't pulling 100% from memory, because it was real time. So I think the soul-memory thing explains most of it, but not all.
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