The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
[All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Mortax:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on February 08, 2013, 05:19:54 AM --- The analysis is specifically looking for common terminology between Outsiders' magic description and mortal magic descriptions. My hesitance to include "hungry"/"empty" is due to the lack of association with the Outsiders. Mordite is described as empty and hungry, and consumes everything from our reality. And Raith's magic is also listed as "empty". But I don't think we have evidence in the books that Raith's magic immunity is tied to Outsiders. There may have been a WoJ on it a while back, but I haven't read it recently.
Doubtful that they're infected. I'm convinced they're involved, but they may have avoided actual infection. They seem to fall more into Duck's theories about mortals wielding Outsiders as a weapon.
--- End quote ---
I think Eb said something about Raith being protected by outsiders. Back when he was explaining Mag Sr.'s death and why he thought her deathcurse did nothing.
TheCuriousFan:
--- Quote from: Mortax on February 08, 2013, 12:58:32 PM ---I think Eb said something about Raith being protected by outsiders. Back when he was explaining Mag Sr.'s death and why he thought her deathcurse did nothing.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Blood Rites Chapter 35 ---"He's protected," he said quietly. "Magic just slides off him."
"Even a death curse?"
"Useless," he said bitterly. "Raith is protected by something big. Maybe a big damned demon. Maybe even some old god. He can't be touched with magic."
--- End quote ---
123456789blaaa:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on February 08, 2013, 05:19:54 AM --- The analysis is specifically looking for common terminology between Outsiders' magic description and mortal magic descriptions. My hesitance to include "hungry"/"empty" is due to the lack of association with the Outsiders. Mordite is described as empty and hungry, and consumes everything from our reality. And Raith's magic is also listed as "empty". But I don't think we have evidence in the books that Raith's magic immunity is tied to Outsiders. There may have been a WoJ on it a while back, but I haven't read it recently.
Doubtful that they're infected. I'm convinced they're involved, but they may have avoided actual infection. They seem to fall more into Duck's theories about mortals wielding Outsiders as a weapon.
But the evidence was from DB. Cowl was also badly injured at the end of that, and we haven't seen him properly in action since then. So it's possible he's become infected by CD, but we don't know.
--- End quote ---
Mordite is from the Outside and the Mordite infused Mistfiend was referred to as an Outsider in CD (you may want to add the descriptions of it also BTW). Also note that Harry describes Raiths magic immunity as very similar to being near Mordite (not just "empty").
Lord Raith knew about HWWB already for the curse. I believe the "something big" that was giving him his magic immunity was HWWB simply because it would be sort of dumb to call a freaking OUTSIDER (you know those things who want to devour reality) when any other entity of sufficient power could have sufficed. It makes much more sense if they have a prior working relationship.
Elegast:
@Griffyn
So.
I liked the OP a lot, especially the tracking of keywords. After a few days, here is my reaction:
Basically you make two statements:
1. There are some keywords associated to outsider-magic/infection: oily, cloying, greasy, slithering, nauseating
2. Elaine is infected
I'm only half-convinced about the first one. Firstly, greasy is linked to all vampires, so using it to identify infected characters would lead to a lot of false positive. Secondly, while I agree those keywords are linked to the Outside, I'm not sure they are linked to the infection.
Case in point : I tried to use your technic with the scene in PG where some unknown person is using magic behind the scenes.
Here is the description of the magic.
The murk:
--- Quote ---“What the hell,” he said, and shook the light a few times. He had his hand on his gun, the restraining strap off, but he hadn’t drawn it yet. Good man. He knew as well as I did that the hotel was going to have far more panicked attendees than potential threats.
“We’ll try mine,” I said, and got the silver pentacle on its chain from around my neck. A gentle whisper and an effort of will and the amulet began to emit a pure, silver-blue light that reached into the darkness around us, burning it away as swiftly as it pressed in, until we could see for maybe fifteen feet around us. Beyond that was just a murky vagueness— not so much a cloud or a mist as a simple lack of light.
--- End quote ---
The ward:
--- Quote --- struggled to ignore the sounds of frightened people in the dark and focused on my magical senses. I reached out to the cold and the gloom, and found it a vaguely familiar kind of spellworking, though I couldn’t remember precisely where I’d encountered it before.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---I nodded once at him, turned, and plunged into the darkness, Rawlins at my back. Screams erupted around us, sometimes accompanied by the sight of stumbling, terrified people. Rawlins nudged them toward the walls, barked at them in a tone of pure paternal authority to stay near them, to move carefully for the exits. The gloom began to press in closer to me, and it became an effort of will to hold up the light in my amulet against it. A few steps more and the air grew even colder. Walking forward became an effort, like wading through waist-deep water. I had to lean against it, and I heard a grunt of effort come out of my mouth. “What’s wrong?” Rawlins asked, his voice tight.
We passed under one of the hotel’s emergency light fixtures, its floodlights only dim orange rings in the murk until my amulet’s light burned the shadows away. “Dark magic,” I growled through clenched teeth. “A kind of ward. Trying to keep me from moving ahead.”
--- End quote ---
We see some keywords, but not the ones linked to Nemesis according to the OP.
So that would mean that the caster was not infected.
The way I see it, if my theory about Maeve at Splattercon!! is true, then yours is false, as Maeve is infected. So that weakens a lot yours as mine has 35% chances of being correct.
Now let's assume that your theory is right. Then it helps us a lot to understand that scene. Who are the candidates? Maeve, Elaine, Sandra, Mavra. Maeve can't be the one. Probably not Elaine, as she's linked to the keywords. So it's Mavra and Sandra. I would say it's not Mavra as : the keyword empty is not there, she was not in Chicago, she doesn't care about the event in PG. So that leaves Sandra.
So that would mean that it's Sandra. Guess we'll have to wait for a WOJ to be sure.
Concerning Elaine, I agree that she becomes quite suspicious.
To conclude, I would guess that the keywords are linked to all outsider-based magic, but not to the infection. So I still believe that Cowl is infected, and that Maeve was at Splattercon!!!.
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Elegast on February 10, 2013, 11:23:14 PM ---@Griffyn
So.
I liked the OP a lot, especially the tracking of keywords. After a few days, here is my reaction:
Basically you make two statements:
1. There are some keywords associated to outsider-magic/infection: oily, cloying, greasy, slithering, nauseating
2. Elaine is infected
I'm only half-convinced about the first one. Firstly, greasy is linked to all vampires, so using it to identify infected characters would lead to a lot of false positive. Secondly, while I agree those keywords are linked to the Outside, I'm not sure there are linked to the infection.
Case in point : I tried to use your technic with the scene in PG where some unknown person is using magic behind the scenes.
Here is the description of the magic.
The murk:The ward:
We see some keywords, but not the ones linked to Nemesis according to the OP.
So that would mean that the caster was not infected.
The way I see it, if my theory about Maeve at Splattercon!! is true, then yours is false, as Maeve is infected. So that weakens a lot yours as mine has 35% chances of being correct.
Now let's assume that your theory is right. Then it helps us a lot to understand that scene. Who are the candidates? Maeve, Elaine, Sandra, Mavra. Maeve can't be the one. Probably not Elaine, as she's linked to the keywords. So it's Mavra and Sandra. I would say it's not Mavra as : the keyword empty is not there, she was not in Chicago, she doesn't care about the event in PG. So that leaves Sandra.
So that would mean that it's either Maeve or Sandra. Guess we'll have to wait for a WOJ to be sure.
Concerning Elaine, I agree that she becomes quite suspicious.
To conclude, I would guess that the keywords are linked to all outsider-based magic, but not to the infection. So I still believe that Cowl is infected, and that Maeve was at Splattercon!!!.
--- End quote ---
My first intention was to make an observation of key words in use to describe Outsiders, specifically used to describe their magic or magical essence.
My second intention was to look for use of those same words to describe the magic or magical essence of other practitioners.
There are numerous references to greasy and oily physical presences, which have no bearing on a magic essence. Vanilla's with greasy hair, greasy Rampires, etc.
But the key references I made were those referring to the subject's magic use. Specifically, most were when using black magic.
Elaine
Elaine uses magic several times in SK and again WN. She traps Harry, she pulls the thornbush apart, she veils herself, she uses her lightning chain, she fires green combat magic, for example. And in none of those instances did Harry describe her magic as being greasy or oily. The only time that she apparently used magic with those descriptions was when she cast an illegal mind fog that, per Harry, is bad mojo, if not outright black magic. That makes me believe that her casting dark magic was tainted by the Infection. Similar to how hellfire and soulfire both automatically fused with Harry's blasts when he didn't intend it. It was bleeding through. In the case of Infection, it would, by necessity of the theory, only bleed through when dark magic was used.
Proven Guilty
To your case about PG. If the greasy affect is a side-affect of some-one wielding dark magic, and Maeve cast the myrk spell, then we should expect it. But since I'm still not convinced it was Maeve casting the myrk, I'm not convinced that's proof against the theory. But if it was Maeve, then it would either have to be an exception of the infection not bleeding through, like with Elaine, or it was because the spell wasn't 'dark' enough. That's a weak defense, and wouldn't buy it myself. The only way the theory could account for it would be that it wasn't Maeve who cast the myrk, or it was left out of the description by JB.
My belief is that the myrk was cast by TTFH, which would still fit, as long as Harry himself isn't infected. Which he may be. We don't know yet.
We can't dismiss it being Mavra, as there are also theories that Sandra was Mavra. Someone sent Michael's eldest down a path of dark magic; Mavra would have the means, motive, and opportunity to do so. If Sandra/Mavra cast the myrk, then the theory stands.
Blamp Exceptions
The biggest issue I've found so far with my own hypothesis is that there are two additional descriptions I found of Blamps that fit the Outsider descriptions. In both cases, it was describing the magical essence of the Blamp, since neither were casting spells.
BR-pg. 20 (Black Court Vampire)
--- Quote --- A sort of greasy, nauseating cold flooded over my perceptions, stealing my
breath.
--- End quote ---
BR-pg. 123 (Black Court Vampire)
--- Quote --- I managed to get to one knee just as a cold, slithery feeling washed down my spine.
--- End quote ---
For these, it's reasonable to assume that the words are simply favorite of JB to describe dark magic in general, and have no bearing on Outsider infection. OR, there's a tie between Blampires and Outsiders. I find the latter unlikely, since Blamps are tied to Necromancy, which was described in detail in DB, and was lacking from Cowl and Kumori. Grevane and Corpsetaker both had some key words in their descriptions, but it's far more likely at that point that the words are favorites.
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