Author Topic: Evocation Blocks: Too Weak?  (Read 21879 times)

Offline noclue

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Re: Evocation Blocks: Too Weak?
« Reply #105 on: February 05, 2013, 02:17:37 AM »
Funny. That's the same amount of time I've spent doing martial arts.

I find that a quick look at somebody's stance and how they move once the fight starts gives you a pretty good idea of what to expect.

In DFRPG wouldn't that quick look be an Assess?

It seems to me that the GM has a lot of narrative options. He can show the block, but not its strength.

"The Neuromancer pops out and goes boo! He's surrounded by a shimmering blue electric field of power. What do you do?"

She can not show the block until it is triggered:

"The Neuromancer pops out and goes Boo!"
"I yell Fuego! And launch my fire blast!"
"It erupts against a dome of force which flares with blue lightning. Lets see if you can get through a block 6."

He can show the Block and its strength.

"The necromancer pops out and goes boo! He's surrounded by a shimmering field of blue lightning. You're going to need to blast through a block six to hit him."

Each of these choices colors the experience in different ways and each is a good or bad choice in different circumstances.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 02:38:32 AM by noclue »

Offline Lavecki121

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Re: Evocation Blocks: Too Weak?
« Reply #106 on: February 05, 2013, 02:29:08 AM »
Aside from my view that characters should not have automatic knowledge of success probability?  Trust your players not to metagame, or play in a system that can actually function where the GM hides game mechanics from the players.

Ok. Couldn't understand that from the previous post. Yes that is true. I think the problem is that GM's are using their meta knowledge to ignore characters who put up blocks, thus decreasing the validity of putting up a block.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Evocation Blocks: Too Weak?
« Reply #107 on: February 05, 2013, 02:51:15 AM »
Which is bad.  What they should be doing, generally, is using narrative attacks represented mechanically as something else (possibly with one or two mechanical attacks thrown in if there are enough contributors to make such worthwhile).
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Evocation Blocks: Too Weak?
« Reply #108 on: February 05, 2013, 05:31:06 PM »
Yes.

My impression is that counterspelling requires some kind of magic-science analysis. But I generally ignore counterspells so I'm not exactly an expert.
Still the precedent is there--the wizard can't know the strength of the spell (blocks included) until he does a deliberate assessment. It isn't right that a wizard has to take an extra effort to assess something that, per your argument, any untrained goon can figure out at a glance.

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Funny. That's the same amount of time I've spent doing martial arts.

I find that a quick look at somebody's stance and how they move once the fight starts gives you a pretty good idea of what to expect.

But I wouldn't be surprised if it was different for wrestling.
I'm with noclue on that--that sounds like an assessment action, and one that you're mainly qualified to make because of your experience. Were you untrained in martial arts, you likely wouldn't be able to assess that.

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That's what the dice are for.
The dice are unreliable--the vast majority of rolls are going to be +1 and under, therefore it's not very sensible to attack something +2 over your attack rating. And yet it keeps happening.

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And with a block, the roll is made well in advance. So the information arrives in advance.

I don't necessarily tell everyone "this guy has Great Fists, dudes" but I've found that if somebody ever makes a roll it's easier just to be transparent about where the numbers come from. And if somebody asked "what are my odds of hitting this dude?" I'd tell 'em whether they're any good.
As I've said, it's different between the players and the GM--in a sense, the players are playing a very different game from the GM--the players do need to know the number (or at least how far off they are from it) so they can avoid wasting fate points. The GM, however, is more about creating the experience and rewarding the players for good tactics--meaning the GM's characters won't always know what they're up against, even if the GM does.

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I can't be bothered to look it up, but this doesn't square with my memory.
They're all more or less light variations on the theme of "translucent dome of energy." Aesthetically, he doesn't really describe them any differently, except occasionally they might be more or less transparent or a different color.

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Maneuvers can look an awful lot like attacks, narratively. And of course there are Compels.

Plus, given the need to pay for duration and the like, it's likely that Harry's shields are about Superb. So it'd often be worth attacking him with skill 3-4.
Granted, we don't know for certain--but given his base Conviction for spirit shields is 5 as of Storm Front, it's extremely likely that he's taken refinements to boost that considerably later in the series. I wouldn't be surprised if his effective conviction score for spirit was 7 or 8.

And I'm referring to vampires jumping him singularly, one at a time, such as they do in Changes when he's with Murphy. If they could tell how strong the block was, they wouldn't take the tactic of individually trying to jump him.

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Sorry, my books are in a different house and buried under a bunch of stuff. Can't be bothered to do proper research for the sake of an internet argument.

But I do remember something with Harry and Molly and a snowball fight. Think it was in Summer Knight.
Molly's kind of an outlier, though--her shields are barely holding together at all in the first place. I don't think they can be used very well as an example of what, say, a 3-shift block looks like compared to a 7-shift block, since to me it looks more like she simply failed to create a block in the first place. I mean, really, if a bunch of pre-teens can get through it with snowballs...

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That's what dice rolls are for.
As before, they're unreliable at best. Just making a straight dice roll and hoping to get a +3 on the roll is, as I think you'd put it, sub-optimal.

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Or maybe they got together and tried to break it down, because maybe with teamwork they could smash it in time to chase the wizards.

Either way seems fair to me.
I think if you take a full day working together, setting up maneuvers, an still can't break through it with literally an army on your side, you were clearly never going to get through that block. And by your argument, they would have tried a different tactic entirely.

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Harry is impressed when he sees the laser. He can clearly tell how impressive it is.

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I'm fair sure that has a lot to do with the fact that she scythed down dozens of zombies in one pass, at least as much as--if not more--than just looking at it.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Evocation Blocks: Too Weak?
« Reply #109 on: February 05, 2013, 11:13:27 PM »
Assessments reveal Aspects. Letting people Assess things without an action messes up the action economy.

Depending on one's situation, attacking when one has a fairly small chance of hitting might be one's best bet.

I'm not too interested in arguing specific examples now that I've provided some, but I will note that it's perfectly reasonable for it to take more than a day to knock down a wall. Especially given the way wards work.


Offline Lavecki121

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Re: Evocation Blocks: Too Weak?
« Reply #110 on: February 06, 2013, 02:50:44 AM »
So Sancta, is your stance that a GM should have his NPC s ignore PC s who put up blocks simply because they put up blocks? All other arguments aside

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Evocation Blocks: Too Weak?
« Reply #111 on: February 06, 2013, 03:59:50 AM »
Sometimes, yes.

If the wizard makes themself untouchable, I think most foes would attack someone else. Or flee, because they realize they're not likely to win the fight.

There are exceptions, though.

I honestly don't feel that strongly about this. But the videogame crack ticked me off so I went into a full rebuttal. Sorry if I went too far with this whole tangent.

Offline Lavecki121

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Re: Evocation Blocks: Too Weak?
« Reply #112 on: February 06, 2013, 06:46:36 AM »
It's fine. I just couldn't gather your opinion on this part of the argument*

Edit: *discussion

Offline Taran

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Re: Evocation Blocks: Too Weak?
« Reply #113 on: February 06, 2013, 02:35:45 PM »
I'm with noclue on that--that sounds like an assessment action, and one that you're mainly qualified to make because of your experience. Were you untrained in martial arts, you likely wouldn't be able to assess that.

So, I have to agree with this.  I was thinking about it after I made my post about the rock climbing.

I'm able to accurately assess how difficult a climb will be because I have lots of skill/experience in it.

Someone with little to no skill would have no comparison and would be unlikely to know how difficult something would be.  THey would therefore have to attempt the climb before discovering how hard it would be to do.

Mechanically, this comes down to an assessment.  The avid climber has a high athletics skill (or whatever skill used to assess a climb) and can therfore discover the difficulty of a block.

Someone with less skill, would have a harder time on the assessment and would likely fail.  In both cases, trying to overcome the bock (the wall) is the most reliable way.

To me, all this means is someone has to try it.  So just because a wizard put up a 10shift sheild block, it doesn't automatically mean the mooks are going to avoid attacking him.  Once they do attack(or once they successfully assess the strength of the block), they'll have a good idea of the block strength and therefore try other tactics.

I'm fine, as a gm, to give people the numerical value, but not without having some reason to know it.  I think the game still works without know every single detail.