The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection

Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]

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Ben de Wal:

--- Quote from: breck on December 29, 2012, 06:50:52 PM ---As far as possible mantles go we are forgetting mouse. Ancient mai was shocked that harry had mouse, exclaiming why is he allowed to keep him. There is more going on with mouse than we have realised. I believe jim has even stated that mouse is more clued in than harry though i am paraphrasing there and may have done so incorrectly.

--- End quote ---
i would think  that harry was aloud to keep mouse was because mouse chose harry and i'd like  to see any one take harry away from mouse

Ben de Wal:

--- Quote from: madness on December 29, 2012, 07:33:29 PM ---I have a feeling that Mantles (like magic) change slowly over time as the world around them (and the purpose that they serve) changes.

I think that it is likely that Harry (and hopefully Molly as well) changes the mantle as he resists its influence.

I actually sort of interpret the overall story arc of the series as Harry being at the nexus of a changing of the guard in the supernatural community as a whole.  Every institution that Harry involves himself with seems to be altered by him in some fashion and his 'modern' and 'mortal centric' sensibilities are both changing existing institutions (changing the self-image of the younger wardens and reshaping the social structure of the Little Folk being the most obvious examples) and creating new institutions (Baron Marcone, Paranet, BFS, etc.).

IMO, this is what Harry most has in common with the original Merlin - I think that he is at the center of reshaping the supernatural landscape (especially as it relates to mortals).

--- End quote ---
i like the idea of the mantle changing with the host so if you have a bunch of weak will knight in a row the mantel would increse the desirse of  the next knight  maybe harry resisting the mantle with soul fire   it will change more quickly  but  the mantle will always have a preditory instinct

Ms Duck:

--- Quote from: Serack on December 29, 2012, 05:33:56 AM ---You touch on some important points that I didn't address in my post.

The thing is, if the two mantles merged, that means that Demonreach would fall into Winter's sphere of influence.  Mab's comments to Demonreach at the end of GS, and Harry's command to Demonreach about interring her if she kills him at the end of CD strongly imply that the Wardenship is DEFINITELY not under Mab's purview as it stands now, whereas the Winter Knight Mantle is nothing but an extension of her own power that must be wielded by a mortal vessel. 

Those two qualities are kinda exclusive, and that oil and water exclusion would have to be addressed for this WAG to work.  One of the reasons why I think this might work out is that Winter didn't always have custodianship over the Outer Gates... Which is evidence that the Winter purview does change.

--- End quote ---

thinking about the gawaine/gwalchmai myth.. doi the knight sof the cross have a mantle of sorts of their own? it would explain why they can do things even without the swords

second, is it possible for someone to be both knight of winter and the cross at the same time?

(hello gwalchmai)

 ;D

KevinSig:

--- Quote from: Serack on December 29, 2012, 05:33:56 AM ---You touch on some important points that I didn't address in my post.

The thing is, if the two mantles merged, that means that Demonreach would fall into Winter's sphere of influence.  Mab's comments to Demonreach at the end of GS, and Harry's command to Demonreach about interring her if she kills him at the end of CD strongly imply that the Wardenship is DEFINITELY not under Mab's purview as it stands now, whereas the Winter Knight Mantle is nothing but an extension of her own power that must be wielded by a mortal vessel. 

Those two qualities are kinda exclusive, and that oil and water exclusion would have to be addressed for this WAG to work.  One of the reasons why I think this might work out is that Winter didn't always have custodianship over the Outer Gates... Which is evidence that the Winter purview does change.

--- End quote ---

Not necessarily.  Harry's statement of being the Winter Knight, but being semi independent, might be part of it.  Plus, the mantles could be in flux, so who trumps who, isn't settled.  However, if Winter Knight went withe mantle of The Warden from here on out, then I'd expect the role to be a bit more independent minded from here on in.

And whoever picked up the mantle from there on in, would likely find himself shaped a bit more like Harry.  Who can respect & work with Mab, but doesn't have to like her.

madness:

--- Quote from: Ms Duck on December 29, 2012, 07:38:18 PM ---thinking about the gawaine/gwalchmai myth.. doi the knight sof the cross have a mantle of sorts of their own? it would explain why they can do things even without the swords

second, is it possible for someone to be both knight of winter and the cross at the same time?

(hello gwalchmai)

 ;D

--- End quote ---

Harry specifically mentions a Knight mantle when asking Karrin to wield Fidelacchius at CI.


--- Quote ---"I'm not asking you to take up the mantle of a Knight," I said quietly.  "I want to entrust it to you for this night, for this purpose.  This sword was made to fight darkness, and there's going to be plenty to go around.  Take it up.  Just until my girl is safe."
--- End quote ---

I don't know that a Winter Knight really meshes very well with the values of a Knight of the Cross but the Archangels appear to have a bit of discretion in these matters.  On a short-term basis I imagine that it would not be a problem.  Several times it is mentioned that the Almighty sees souls, not titles or names or reputations.  Susan was able to use a sword when she was a half vampire and Harry is still able to use soulfire even as the Winter Knight (and he was trusted with two swords when he still had a shadow in his head).

Uriel has intervened in several instances, IMO, to help 'insulate' Harry's soul against the dark powers and forces that he is exposed to or tempted by.  He might do something similar for Molly.  I have no doubt that being a Knight of the Cross could shield Molly from the Winter Lady mantle.  I don't know if Uriel would be willing to upset the balance or risk the purpose of a Sword in that fashion but I think that it would work if that is the way that it shook out.

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