The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
KevinSig:
--- Quote from: Gman on December 29, 2012, 05:05:02 AM ---The Mantles do change over time (usually centuries). Vadderung said as much. How much do they change and how rapidly probably depends on what the being who is using the mantel is doing. I think Harry may be able to change the WK mantle some. He is really powerful, strong willed and stubborn.
--- End quote ---
I think you confuse things here. It isn't that the mantles necessarily change, but they can change. I think that thing Bob mentioned, about immortals stealing bits of mantles from one another, has a lot to do with long held mantles.
In fact, I wonder if Oberon's mantle (whom Jim recently confirmed existed) went into the creation of the Santa mantle. I've only done minor research into it & I'm not entirely certain the dates line up (when Shakespeare existed & when Santa came about), but the idea that Odin took something like Oberon into himself, seems to have some merit.
Since Santa is associated with the Fae in ways that Odin is not.
Hmm... Not sure, but isn't there a WOJ saying how mortals can change the Fae, but they won't change on their own? Maybe in connection with Toot, but I could be wrong. Will look around later.
Still, what I'm trying to say is that long immortal creatures like Odin & Mab can only change their mantles by swapping bits in. Harry & (hopefully Molly) might have an easier time, because they are closer to mortality.
In a recent conversation with Ms Duck, she pointed out that we couldn't trust Odin, because at some point in history, Odin & Loki became the same entity. I pointed out, that per this theory, Odin likely absorbed Loki's mantle & became a bastard for decades/centuries (not inclined to do the research) but got over it when he picked up the Santa mantle.
Well mostly. Modern Odin was kinda a jerk insisting on that whole nickel exchange. :)
TheCuriousFan:
--- Quote from: KevinSig on December 29, 2012, 08:46:14 AM ---Hmm... Not sure, but isn't there a WOJ saying how mortals can change the Fae, but they won't change on their own? Maybe in connection with Toot, but I could be wrong. Will look around later.
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--- Quote ---No free will ever? Or no free will to disobey when commanded? I don't know that it's possible to have intellect without will. Well, then again, most of us have to make decisions about what is true, and what isn't, or what to remember and forget - but a spirit of intellect is mostly just a talking library, right? A storehouse. Although, Bob seems to also understand what he knows... I'm getting over my head.
Well, I don't want to hand out too much outside the context of an actual story. But within the context of the Dresden books, Bob isn't, like, an actual mortal person.
Mortals are the ones who have free will, the ability to choose what they're doing, to choose between right and wrong. Without getting too thickly into the underlying philosophy, that's the thing that separates, for example, mankind from the angels--the angels didn't get the same kind of choice about their existance, and what they would do with it. Mortals get the chance to make all kinds of decisions, and can change their minds, well, at will. Other creatures, though they may look like people, don't get the same range of choices about who and what they will be.
Mab, for example, is Mab. She /can't/ show up and suddenly be merciful, generous, patient and kind. It would never so much as occur to her to do so, because it isn't a fundamental part of her nature, and she /can't/ choose to change it. She simply isn't capable. She doesn't have free will in the same way that people do. It's related to the difference between having a soul and not having a soul, as well. Without a soul, you aren't free to choose how you will shape that soul. You just stay what you are.
But that's getting way off the subject of Bob. I mean, don't you think that if he had totally free will, he'd be out of the skull all the time, hitching rides in people's heads on their way into strip bars or something? There's a reason he obeys Harry, and it's not purely because Harry offers him shelter from a gruesome demise. It's a part of who and what he is.
Another question: Does Bob know everything all the time, or just know when he is asked a question? Can he ask himself questions? (wouldn't that involve will?)
He doesn't know everything. He knows a LOT. There's a difference. He's been alive for centuries and worked with a lot of different wizards, and he remembers absolutely everything he is exposed to. He's an enormous source of information and practical experience, not a conduit to infinite knowledge. He's got limits. He can ask himself questions and attempt to extrapolate answers based upon what he knows, or by asking other spirits for answers, or by venturing out and seeking the answers himself, but he doesn't just pull knowledge out of nowhere. He just LIKES having it, and getting more of it. That's what he is. He's innocent (more or less) of the whole question of good and evil. His existance is focused on questions and answers, upon simply acquiring the knowledge, and that's that.
Which is not to say that he could never become anything more. Especially if he hangs around with mortals a lot. Mortals, in their own possession of free will, have a tendancy to influence beings who don't have it, in one way or another. I suppose it's entirely possible, for example, that too much association with mortals are what changed Aurora, former Summer Lady, and gave her a determination to destroy the natural order in an effort to change its very nature--for the better, true, but it would never even have occurred to any of the other Queens, Mothers or Lady that such a thing might be, until it had already happened. It isn't in their nature.
But perhaps I've said too much. I'll shut up now.
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http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28481.msg1220859.html#msg1220859
breck:
As far as possible mantles go we are forgetting mouse. Ancient mai was shocked that harry had mouse, exclaiming why is he allowed to keep him. There is more going on with mouse than we have realised. I believe jim has even stated that mouse is more clued in than harry though i am paraphrasing there and may have done so incorrectly.
xakko:
--- Quote from: TheCuriousFan on December 29, 2012, 08:52:42 AM ---http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28481.msg1220859.html#msg1220859
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that [the bolded part]... doesn't sound like Nemesis.
it sounds rather like a mortal (possibly a Nemesis infused one) convinced her. I think we need to ask Jim if Aurora was actually infected or not.
madness:
I have a feeling that Mantles (like magic) change slowly over time as the world around them (and the purpose that they serve) changes.
I think that it is likely that Harry (and hopefully Molly as well) changes the mantle as he resists its influence.
I actually sort of interpret the overall story arc of the series as Harry being at the nexus of a changing of the guard in the supernatural community as a whole. Every institution that Harry involves himself with seems to be altered by him in some fashion and his 'modern' and 'mortal centric' sensibilities are both changing existing institutions (changing the self-image of the younger wardens and reshaping the social structure of the Little Folk being the most obvious examples) and creating new institutions (Baron Marcone, Paranet, BFS, etc.).
IMO, this is what Harry most has in common with the original Merlin - I think that he is at the center of reshaping the supernatural landscape (especially as it relates to mortals).
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