The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
[CD spoilers] Proven Guilty
Serack:
--- Quote from: knnn on December 04, 2012, 07:43:07 PM ---^this^
Consider that we're dealing with beings who are playing a chess game across the universe, and that given the resources available to both sides brute-force is almost never going to work. Also, since both are neigh-infallible predicting machines, each will be continually shutting down the other's gambits, ending each round in a stalemate. The only way one of them can really get an advantage is by playing a game where not all the variables can be predicted --- by either side.
In practice what this means is that both sides are playing with mortal pawns while only subtly using their influence (which would be countered by the other side), and taking big chances (e.g. risking the Archive) in the hopes the their limited vision will triumph.
Interesting enough, one can argue that the fact that mortals have free will is the key point of the battle -- in a sense, those minor decisions are the only ones that are unpredictable by both Mab and Nemesis, and so success or failure of their eternal conflict hinges precisely on that.
-- This might even serve to explain why Mab smiles every time Harry stands up to her. The fact that he isn't bowing down to her desires means that he still is unpredictable to an extent -- he is still useful as a pawn.
--- End quote ---
I like. I like a lot. Except Harry is no pawn, he's a KNIGHT!
This reallllly meshes with this WoJ btw:
--- Quote from: WoJ ---There is a rather long discussion as to what constitutes free will as an element in the back end of this book (Ghost Story). Is what is presented and discussed as a concept, your own philosophy? How did that come about, the idea that free will is making your choices based upon truth.
Right, and in the Dresden Files universe it's a vital component. It's what devides mortals, human beings, from everybody else. Is that we're the ones that have elements of both good and evil inside us, we're the ones who get to chose what to do. And because that's who we are, we make the world around us through those choices. The forces of the universe, these cosmic forces are always ballanced against one another, and we're the ones who can tilt that see-saw one way or another with our actions. I think that is largely true in real life, but it is certainly a very fun, dramatic use of the concept of free will for writing with. It's very important in general, and that's why Harry, as he's gotten more mature, he's striven so much harder to make sure that other people have a choice, you know, he's not trying to make choices for people any more, he's trying to make sure that they know what's going on, and can make an informed choice.
--- End quote ---
Elegast:
--- Quote from: knnn on December 04, 2012, 08:04:29 PM ---
- An interesting thing would be to look back at Jim's CIA response to Neuro's original post in light of our current theories. It might be that there is some cryptic phrase in there that might suddenly click.
- Come to think of it, there was also that WoJ about "exactly two things correct" regarding demonreach. We might have better intelligence about that one.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Neurovore ---There is also the other element of how Harry got into Arctis Tor to consider in each case. There's nothing defending Arctis Tor but some fetches, because something, armed with Hellfire, took out a small army of goblins and a pack of trolls.
(Given that Harry knows Hellfire, I think we can rule out the Scarecrow's unfetchlike powers being Denarian-based, fwiw.)
This could have been a serious attack that failed, in which case, what stopped it ? Do we think the fetches were able to stop a Denarian where all those goblins could not ? I don't, myself, and there's nobody else around Arctis Tor to have stopped them. And furthermore, if it's an independent hostile attack, the timing is really excessively convenient to benefit Harry's mission.
The other option here is it was an attack that was meant to fail. That Namshiel (or whoever it was) is working there, directly or indirectly, in the interests of what Mab wants by opening that hole in her defences for Harry and company to get through.
--- End quote ---
The old theory that the first attack was just a way to let Harry go thought the defenses.
--- Quote ---Demonreach may not be friendly to humans but he is not violent to others. All the animals on the Island are welcome and make their homes there. While he may have a dark nature, nothing on the Island is corrupt or foul.
--- End quote ---
That was the wrong half.
Concerning the wink, I was thinking of that WOJ:
--- Quote from: WOJ ---Also, it has probably occurred to more than one of you that if Mab was /really/ in trouble, she could have had the entire military might of Faerie back at the fortress in moments--exactly the way they *did* come back when Harry smacked the Winter Well with the fires of Summer.
--- End quote ---
Maybe Mab thought she could send them back in a few moments, so she had won. And then Meave unleashed her time manipulation spell, and she finally understood Nemesis's plan...
Second Aristh:
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but I have a couple of questions Elegast
* It doesn't make sense for Mab to work so hard to get an extra candidate for Winter Lady if she already has Sarissa and doesn't know about Maeve being taken.
* Who exactly is the Eldest Fetch working for?
What about something like this scenario?
* Maeve is infected by Lea unbeknownst to Mab
* Mab notices Molly and sees potential for something (maybe another way to get a hook into Harry, maybe timey-wimey stuff)
* Mab sends a message through the Gatekeeper to Harry to look out for dark magic (building foundations for Molly's apprenticeship)
* Mab sends the fetches to keep Harry's attention focused away from the dark magic and eventually abduct Molly.
* Black Council operatives including a Denarian attack Arctis Tor, insulting Mab's pride and clearing out extra guards, instead of pressing further in, the attackers retreat before Mab steps in personally.
* The fetches bring Molly to the tower for whatever initiation Mab had planned for her.
* Mab originally was going to bring Molly back, but Harry and company are coming to rescue her anyway so Mab "leaves".
* In the fight, the Scarecrow reveals that Nemesis has infected him (by Maeve in Chicago), but Harry uses Summer fire to defeat him anyway. Mab is smug about her underdog winning the fight. To Mab, damaging the Wellspring is unfortunate, but she can immediately send her troops back.
* Passage of time is altered in Arctis Tor, leaving the Gates undefended for too long. Maeve is the only possible culprit, and Mab realizes that she has been infected, hurting her and causing her fury.
Basically, PG follows pretty much what Mab wanted to happen, but she gets surprised by the attack on Arctis Tor. Mab loses a bit of control of the situation, but thinks things are going to work out anyway in the end. At the last moment, Nemesis outplays Mab and gets guards off the Outer Gates for a time. Eventually, Mab figures out who betrayed her and is furious.
THE_ANGRY_GAMER:
Molly is being prepared as a contingency - specifically, to replace Lily. Mab even says she'd have preferred it if Molly had gone Summer. In chess, you have to think three moves ahead and when you're playing the game that Mab and Nemesis are playing you have to be thinking fa, far further.
Elegast:
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on December 04, 2012, 10:03:36 PM ---Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but I have a couple of questions Elegast
* It doesn't make sense for Mab to work so hard to get an extra candidate for Winter Lady if she already has Sarissa and doesn't know about Maeve being taken.
* Who exactly is the Eldest Fetch working for?
--- End quote ---
About the Eldest Fetch: he made Harry attack the well. So his loyalty depends on Mab's intention: did she wanted Harry to pour summer fire in the Winter well? If yes, then Eldest was a loyal minion. If no, then he was an infected traitor working for Nemesis.
Concerning Molly: That part is not certain. Maeve was about to reveal herself in PG: she was telling everyone Mab was mad. The moment Mab heard of those rumors, she knows Maeve is infected. However, did Mab knew of Maeve's infection before PG? I think not. I believe Mab sent her to Chigaco to free the Way for Molly in Pell's theater, so she was still trusting her daughter.
So, if she did not know about Maeve, why did she 'work so hard'? We have some answers from in CD: Molly could have several uses: as a Summer Lady, as Winter Lady, or for 'another purpose'. Anyway the "work so hard" is overrated, PG was meant to be a minor operation for Mab: a few fetches for a week and her Lady for a day were all what was necessary to execute the plan.
Then Nemesis decided to subvert it, and it went FUBAR.
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on December 04, 2012, 10:03:36 PM ---Mab sends a message through the Gatekeeper to Harry to look out for dark magic (building foundations for Molly's apprenticeship)[/li][/list]
--- End quote ---
Possible but unnecessary: the Gatekeeper has some limited precog, that's the explanation given in the book by Bob, so I'll stay with the simplest explanation. And Harry would have tried to save Molly/stop murders of civilians anyway.
--- Quote ---Black Council operatives including a Denarian attack Arctis Tor, insulting Mab's pride and clearing out extra guards, instead of pressing further in, the attackers retreat before Mab steps in personally.
--- End quote ---
Possible.
--- Quote ---Mab originally was going to bring Molly back, but Harry and company are coming to rescue her anyway so Mab "leaves".
--- End quote ---
That's an interesting possibility. However, the fetches's victims show that bringing Harry was in the plan from the beginning: the attack on Pell, the first one, was not random: it was to free the the theater where there was a Way to Artis Tor.
The last set of fetches was sent by Mab according to WOJ:
--- Quote ---Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in.
--- End quote ---
So Mab probably sent the first ones too. She wanted Molly to become Harry's apprentice and to protect her from the WC, so it was logical to bring him in.
Still, I may be wrong, and the first fetches may have been working for Maeve.
--- Quote ---
* In the fight, the Scarecrow reveals that Nemesis has infected him (by Maeve in Chicago), but Harry uses Summer fire to defeat him anyway. Mab is smug about her underdog winning the fight. To Mab, damaging the Wellspring is unfortunate, but she can immediately send her troops back.
* Passage of time is altered in Arctis Tor, leaving the Gates undefended for too long. Maeve is the only possible culprit, and Mab realizes that she has been infected, hurting her and causing her fury.
--- End quote ---
Strong possibility.
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