The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
[spoilers for PG] I think Harry Fixed Little Chicago
SerScot:
Elegast,
--- Quote ---Do we have the exact wording of the contract between Lea and Maggie?
And besides Mab can do anything she wants if she feels it's her interest. Only lying, taking/giving gift and breaking oath are impossible. And honestly, deciding to save Harry was an easy call: minimal effort, great probability that he would be become WK.
--- End quote ---
Maybe, but it avoids the wonderful possiblities for torturing Harry with the ability to "fix" things. I think he's got to face his mistakes, again. Time travel gives Mr. Butcher the ability to tempt Harry with fixing those mistakes.
Elegast:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on May 03, 2012, 02:29:31 PM ---he wouldn't make something this big- if im right, its affected four novels so far- and not leave clues.
--- End quote ---
You're overstating your case. Harry could have fixed LC, and yet Mab would still have pulled the strings in SmF, PG and messed with Harry's head.
I feel you made an extremely good case proving that Mab was messing with Harry's head, but we can't be absolutely sure about LC.
Ms Duck:
--- Quote from: SerScot on May 03, 2012, 02:29:59 PM ---Ms. Duck,
But in the discussion between Bob and Harry about Time Travel in Proven Guilty Bob's pretty clear that it is possible and you can "nudge" unimportant things to influence events. What you can't do is go in guns blazing and save everyone you want to save. That's what causes the Universe to implode. What we think we see in PG appear to be "nudges" done with great care.
Harry not being able to save those kids is exactly why I think Butcher will go that direction. It's the sort of moral quandry that Harry will agonize over.
--- End quote ---
I understand what youre saying, I just don't belive the conversation is about time travela t all; its about foresight- why gatekeepr- and in this case, I believ Mab- would do things the way they do. It's Jim's explanation for why Mab kidnaps Molly; she had to move her pieces around the board in order to change what she foresaw.
and My version tkaes the moral quandry issue and hits Harry over the head with it.
If I am correct, Mab:
-kidnapped and tortured Molly
-let thomas be tortured
-let dozens of innocents die
- set maggie jr up to be kidnapped
-set susan up to be killed
at soem point, arroudn book 19, harry will figure this out. and he will have to decide: does mab's greater good justify this? Can he forgive her? If so, can he ever forgive himself? Which hurts worse, a few random strangers or his own familly? And if he doesnt forgive Mab, and betrays her, will he beable to deal with the greate evil she foresaw without her?
there is a reason why Jim isnt doint the revael until just before the BAT- I think its because harry's decision, about Lea, his mother, and Mab, si what causes the bAT.
dramatic enough for you?
Elegast:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on May 03, 2012, 02:43:32 PM ---I understand what youre saying, I just don't belive the conversation is about time travela t all; its about foresight- why gatekeepr- and in this case, I believ Mab- would do things the way they do. It's Jim's explanation for why Mab kidnaps Molly; she had to move her pieces around the board in order to change what she foresaw.
and My version tkaes the moral quandry issue and hits Harry over the head with it.
If I am correct, Mab:
-kidnapped and tortured Molly
-let thomas be tortured
-let dozens of innocents die
- set maggie jr up to be kidnapped
-set susan up to be killed
at soem point, arroudn book 19, harry will figure this out. and he will have to decide: does mab's greater good justify this? Can he forgive her? If so, can he ever forgive himself? Which hurts worse, a few random strangers or his own familly? And if he doesnt forgive Mab, and betrays her, will he beable to deal with the greate evil she foresaw without her?
there is a reason why Jim isnt doint the revael until just before the BAT- I think its because harry's decision, about Lea, his mother, and Mab, si what causes the bAT.
dramatic enough for you?
--- End quote ---
Yes. Problem: everything you say would still be true even if Harry was the one to fix LC.
knnn:
Ok, so lets start a serious discussion on the theory that Harry used time-travelling to fix LC (no mentioning of "Mab explains this better" please - lets discuss the merits of the theory on its own).
Here are some points to start with:
The nature of time travel in the DV:
The first thing we need to work out is how time travel works in the Dresdenverse. I'm sure we all have seen various ways of dealing with the problems inherent in time travel, and while we do not yet know how exactly Jim will address the issue, we have a clue (coincidentally?) in PG.
According to Bob, a big problem with Time Travel is paradoxageddon. To be perfectly accurate, Bob's example doesn't necessarily use time travel, but merely future prediction. His example is "if you warn someone that something will happen, he will avoid it, so how did you warn him in the first place".
To me this suggests the following interpretation of "normal" time travel in the DV:
1) You cannot change the past. Doing anything else will risk paradoxeggedon.
2) As such, the only thing you can actually accomplish with time travel is something that already happened. If you kill someone in the past, then historically (your timeline), he must have been killed by you as well.
Implications
If we believe this is the way that time travel works, then you are really very limited in what you can do. For example, no going back in time to save someone's life -- you'll destroy the universe if you do so.
Thus, if you want to change something in the past (like save a life), you need:
1) You must know that person's life had actually been saved.
2) You must not know in advance who saved the person (i.e. if you do know that you will save that person in the future, then what if you suddenly choose not to do so? --- paradoxeggdon).
3) You probably also need to know the "Rules" of time travel. Otherwise you are probably going to break something.
Little Chicago
Interestingly enough, if Harry does go back in time to fix LC, these three points are very conveniently covered in PG.
1) Harry knows LC got fixed. Therefore he knows that he can fix it without causing paradox.
2) Bob makes sure to point out to Harry that LC, but not who fixed it. If Bob was aware that Harry fixed LC using time travel, this is the exact amount of information he is supposed to pass on to Harry in order to avoid paradox.
3) Bob also makes sure to explain to Harry the rules of time travel.
Other corroborating points
Obviously we won't find much - this is very much a WAG, but here goes:
1) There is a WoJ that a future book will deal with time travel. If we believe the theory of how time travel works in the DV, we need to find an event that already happened that will be dealt with. Of course, the book could always take us back to Sue or something like that (which city vanished for a few hours?). However, if Jim really wants to show us the implications of time travel, it would really need to be an event where Harry must tread carefully around events he remembers to avoid paradox .
Among all the events seen in the course of the series so far, fixing LC seems most likely.
2) Serack did a very interesting Doyle analysis here of PG. Specifically, he points out that Jim inserted a detour and seemingly superfluous encounter with Thomas into the narrative without any "implication". Since Jim is an admitted "Lazy Writer", we have to ask ourselves why he needed to write those paragraphs. If we assume that a future time travel book will take place around PG time, this creates a perfect "obstacle" for Harry to avoid.
That's all I have for now.
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