The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Questions
Serack:
--- Quote from: wyltok on March 14, 2012, 03:30:13 PM ---You may be right on that one. But let's compare what Lasciel/Lash was doing before Harry empowered the steel circle (making Harry hear music in his mind) with what Lash did before he willingly used Hellfire in Dead Beat (she made him see and hear Shiela). Even if it did limit her, it certainly didn't limit her to the point that she couldn't make him see/hear stuff. It still seems to me that Lash on her own could have easily kept the music going in Harry's mind, rather than stopping as soon as he empowered the circle. So if she didn't stop because she had to, she must have stopped because she chose to, no?
--- End quote ---
First, as I said earlier, the mechanics of how this worked are determined by Jim, and he probably worked them out after he finished DM. So they weren't exactly figured out until after the actual prison was "built" and we are theorizing after the fact, so neither of us are likely to be 100% right or wrong.
Lasciel had pretty much zero influence (at least that was described in the books) between Harry erecting the steel ring circle and first using Hellfire in the asault on the blampire lair.
--- Quote from: BR ch 33 ---The runes still glowed with a sullen fire, though it was slowly fading. Tiny, white whisps of wood smoke curled up from it, sharp in my nose. It hadn't ever done that before
--- End quote ---
If we consider Harry's dream about his father a pertinant source (it's kinda dubious, considering Harry might have just been halucinating), something (Harry presumes "the demon") had crossed some line that allowed Malcolm to speak to Harry. Implying that until then, Lasciel's shadow couldn't have communicated with Harry without cheating to some degree. (reference chapter 11 of DB, it's too long to quote)
Serack:
I had actually thought having a discrete denarian "Shadow" was unique to Harry's predicament because of his imprisoning the coin until Nic directly addressed it in SmF.
However, in WN, Harry and Lash discuss how nobody had ever fought a shadow's influence for so long... I always figured one of the reasons why Harry had done so well was because of the "prison" which in my mind made the "Shadow" discrete and cut off from the original entity, sort of how knnn describes. OTOH, Nic's behavior makes me think that I might be giving too much weight to the prison...
Still I am not even close to convinced that it was without value, expecially considering what Malcolm said in the dream. But I could be entirely wrong.
There is certainly something going on about the Denarians that I don't understand because I am unsure how Lasciel could have wispered to Harry in Changes... Jim's answer to AA's question at last years BBB Q&A only served to confuse me further.
--- Quote from: WoJ ---What’s the range of influence for the Fallen in the coins? How far can they extend themselves away from their Denarian hosts?
Oh, their range is very, very limited, to this one little planet.
--- End quote ---
Ms Duck:
My theor on changes ws that since it occured under holy ground, lasciel has a new host in the building. The same person who hired stevie d, most likely.... If a circle could contain the spirit of a fallen then surely the church could. Ergo the armument about the circle working is self contradictory... when lash tricked harry, one of the tricks was to stop sining on cue. And according to michael, all coins leave shadows, allways.
khatre:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on March 14, 2012, 04:41:27 PM ---My theor on changes ws that since it occured under holy ground, lasciel has a new host in the building. The same person who hired stevie d, most likely.... If a circle could contain the spirit of a fallen then surely the church could. Ergo the armument about the circle working is self contradictory... when lash tricked harry, one of the tricks was to stop sining on cue. And according to michael, all coins leave shadows, allways.
--- End quote ---
Just because the church could does not mean they would. Even if they did put their collected coins in circles they have traitors in the church willing to get them out of the circles fairly easily. Circles can stop magic not a pickaxe.
wyltok:
--- Quote from: Serack on March 14, 2012, 04:08:28 PM ---First, as I said earlier, the mechanics of how this worked are determined by Jim, and he probably worked them out after he finished DM. So they weren't exactly figured out until after the actual prison was "built" and we are theorizing after the fact, so neither of us are likely to be 100% right or wrong.
--- End quote ---
That's mean, Serack! Using a Doylist argument in a Watsonian discussion is below the belt! (Please not my tongue is firmly in my cheek).
--- Quote from: Serack on March 14, 2012, 04:08:28 PM ---Lasciel had pretty much zero influence (at least that was described in the books) between Harry erecting the steel ring circle and first using Hellfire in the asault on the blampire lair.
--- End quote ---
I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that what you're trying to say here is that cutting of Lash from Lasciel weakened her, and she had to regain her strength before she could influence Harry's senses overtly, and that the amount of Hellfire Harry swings around increases as Lash becomes stronger, giving us a gauge of how strong she is at any given time. The obvious question, of course, is what is Lash using to make herself stronger? I think the only three options are:
1. She becomes stronger as she becomes more familiar with Harry's brain.
2. She becomes stronger as she influences Harry's subconcious.
3. She becomes stronger by tapping into Hellfire, and has to keep the flow slow so as not to fry his brain in the process.
Of the three options, I find option 2 to most aligned with the idea that she can only reveal herself to him after he consciously uses Hellfire. It would make sense that a similar restriction exists on his subconcious, and she's been talking to him, getting him to accept more and more of her help (we know he's kinda a dick, after all, and we know he's been working on turning her at the same time she was working on turning him).
Please let me know if I got your side of the argument right.
--- Quote from: Serack on March 14, 2012, 04:08:28 PM ---If we consider Harry's dream about his father a pertinant source (it's kinda dubious, considering Harry might have just been halucinating), something (Harry presumes "the demon") had crossed some line that allowed Malcolm to speak to Harry. Implying that until then, Lasciel's shadow couldn't have communicated with Harry without cheating to some degree. (reference chapter 11 of DB, it's too long to quote)
--- End quote ---
... I'm not sure the conclusion you're drawing from this evidence makes sense. All we see here is that Lash communicating with Harry "crosses a line" and has consequences. It doesn't say anything about whether the reason she didn't cross the line before was because she didn't have the power to do so (which I think is the point you're trying to make) or because she chose to wait until the optimal time to do so (the argument I'm trying to make). If you believe that Malcolm's appearance is a reaction to Lasciel's actions, then he's there not because she didn't cheat, but rather because she did cheat. I'm sorry, I'm just not following your train of thought here at all. If anything, this evidence supports the idea that she had reasons to choose to wait (Malcolm), rather than the idea that she was helpless to act earlier.
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