The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Questions
DragonEyes:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on March 14, 2012, 04:41:27 PM ---My theor on changes ws that since it occured under holy ground, lasciel has a new host in the building. The same person who hired stevie d, most likely.... If a circle could contain the spirit of a fallen then surely the church could. Ergo the armument about the circle working is self contradictory... when lash tricked harry, one of the tricks was to stop sining on cue. And according to michael, all coins leave shadows, allways.
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--- Quote from: Serack on March 14, 2012, 04:23:23 PM ---I had actually thought having a discrete denarian "Shadow" was unique to Harry's predicament because of his imprisoning the coin until Nic directly addressed it in SmF.
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The way to get rid of a shadow is to give up your magic. That suggests those without magic also lack shadows. Shadows may be something that the coins uses as insurance against the coin being put into a circle, turning the magic of the user against those most likely to have a defense. To me, that suggests that other magic users have used circles before.
Serack:
--- Quote from: wyltok on March 14, 2012, 05:22:12 PM ---That's mean, Serack! Using a Doylist argument in a Watsonian discussion is below the belt! (Please not my tongue is firmly in my cheek).
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I had to look that up. I like those terms! I do tend to do a lot of that, and I notice that it doesn't always jive with a lot of people's perferred method of theorizing. Me, I try to use all the tools avilable to me, and that includes stuff Jim has said about his writing process.
--- Quote from: wyltok on March 14, 2012, 05:22:12 PM ---I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that what you're trying to say here is that cutting of Lash from Lasciel weakened her, and she had to regain her strength before she could influence Harry's senses overtly, and that the amount of Hellfire Harry swings around increases as Lash becomes stronger, giving us a gauge of how strong she is at any given time. The obvious question, of course, is what is Lash using to make herself stronger? I think the only three options are:
1. She becomes stronger as she becomes more familiar with Harry's brain.
2. She becomes stronger as she influences Harry's subconcious.
3. She becomes stronger by tapping into Hellfire, and has to keep the flow slow so as not to fry his brain in the process.
Of the three options, I find option 2 to most aligned with the idea that she can only reveal herself to him after he consciously uses Hellfire. It would make sense that a similar restriction exists on his subconcious, and she's been talking to him, getting him to accept more and more of her help (we know he's kinda a dick, after all, and we know he's been working on turning her at the same time she was working on turning him).
Please let me know if I got your side of the argument right.
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This isn't quite what I mean, but the difference (or similarities) might be subtle.
Btw, I am in the habit of only referring to Lasciel's Shadow as "Lash" when referring to her from WN or beyond. Lash was an entity that identified herself seperately from Lasciel, while Lasciel's original Shadow did not truely consider herself a discrete entity.
Ok back to the consequenses of the prison. This distinction might be subtle, but I don't think Lasciel's Shadow was weakened by the prison so much as she became very constrained in what options she had for influencing Harry, but that those options expanded as she managed to corrupt him. Origionally I think it likely that her only tool of corruption available was to make Hellfire available to his subconcious. However, it was not until the events of BR that he was in a situation stressfull enough that his subconcious actually used it. This usage is what finally opened him up to her communing with his subconcious.
--- Quote from: DB ch 38 ---I stared at him [Harry's subconcious] and said, "You've been talking to her behind my back."
"For months," he said calmly. "It was only polite. After all, you wanted nothing to do with her."
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With this happening, she apparently gained enough influence to induce hallucinations... Thus Shela. And as Harry slides further down the slippery slope of corruption, the Shadow gained more means of influencing him. However, I do not think of the shadow as becoming stronger, but rather gaining more chinks in Harry's armor to squeeze through.
--- Quote from: wyltok on March 14, 2012, 05:22:12 PM ---... I'm not sure the conclusion you're drawing from this evidence makes sense. All we see here is that Lash communicating with Harry "crosses a line" and has consequences. It doesn't say anything about whether the reason she didn't cross the line before was because she didn't have the power to do so (which I think is the point you're trying to make) or because she chose to wait until the optimal time to do so (the argument I'm trying to make). If you believe that Malcolm's appearance is a reaction to Lasciel's actions, then he's there not because she didn't cheat, but rather because she did cheat. I'm sorry, I'm just not following your train of thought here at all. If anything, this evidence supports the idea that she had reasons to choose to wait (Malcolm), rather than the idea that she was helpless to act earlier.
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Hmmmm. Yah, that doesn't really hold up well as evidence that the opportunity wasn't there until that point.
How about this quote: :P
--- Quote ---"How many shadows have ever stayed in a host like me for longer than a few weeks, huh? Longer than three years?"
"Never," Lasciel's shadow replied in a near-whisper. "Granted you are unusually stiff-necked, for a mortal. Suicidally so, in fact."
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Cozarkian:
--- Quote from: Serack on March 14, 2012, 06:59:36 PM ---Ok back to the consequenses of the prison. This distinction might be subtle, but I don't think Lasciel's Shadow was weakened by the prison so much as she became very constrained in what options she had for influencing Harry, but that those options expanded as she managed to corrupt him. Origionally I think it likely that her only tool of corruption available was to make Hellfire available to his subconcious. However, it was not until the events of BR that he was in a situation stressfull enough that his subconcious actually used it. This usage is what finally opened him up to her communing with his subconcious.
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If I may lend my support, I'd like to point out that Harry's circle was a conscious act of rejection but as Michael (or was Uriel) pointed out, subconsciously Harry wasn't ready to completly give up the temptation, which is why he kept the coin buried instead of turning it over.
From this, we correctly conclude the shadow could not openly defy Harry's act of free will (sealing the coin), but as Harry subconsciously wanted the coin to be available, the Shadow could make Hellfire available to his subconscious. Then, when Harry subconsciouslly used Hellfire, his subconscious became open to temptation. When Harry consciously used Hellfire, his conscious became open to temptation.
Serack:
--- Quote from: Cozarkian on March 14, 2012, 07:26:06 PM ---If I may lend my support, I'd like to point out that Harry's circle was a conscious act of rejection but as Michael (or was Uriel) pointed out, subconsciously Harry wasn't ready to completly give up the temptation, which is why he kept the coin buried instead of turning it over.
From this, we correctly conclude the shadow could not openly defy Harry's act of free will (sealing the coin), but as Harry subconsciously wanted the coin to be available, the Shadow could make Hellfire available to his subconscious. Then, when Harry subconsciouslly used Hellfire, his subconscious became open to temptation. When Harry consciously used Hellfire, his conscious became open to temptation.
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This is a much better way of saying one of my earlier points :)
--- Quote from: Serack on March 14, 2012, 02:46:09 PM ---If nothing else, prison actually served as is a concrete choice to reject Lasciel's influence, thus forcing her shadow to utalize much more subtle methods to gain influence over him. But I am going to hold to the idea that making this prison severly limited Lasciel's shadow's influence over him.
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Cozarkian:
--- Quote from: Serack on March 14, 2012, 07:50:53 PM ---This is a much better way of saying one of my earlier points :)
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That was basically my goal. People think differently, so I was trying to restate the idea you expressed in different terms by emphasizing the parallels that can be drawn from Harry's and the Shadow's actions (also JB has expressly drawn a parallet with Lash's sacrifice, so it makes sense that he would have deliberately done the same with the Shadow's actions).
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