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wyltok:

--- Quote from: Serack on March 14, 2012, 02:46:09 PM ---I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

The way you write this, the prison did nothing except motivate the Shadow to change tatics and pretend it was working.  IMO, until Harry built the prison, Lasciel had an active link to her shadow in Harry, and once he built the prison, the link was sort of severed, and the Shadow was severly hampered in it's options of how to influence Harry.

If nothing else, prison actually served as is a concrete choice to reject Lasciel's influence, thus forcing her shadow to utalize much more subtle methods to gain influence over him.  But I am going to hold to the idea that making this prison severly limited Lasciel's shadow's influence over him.
--- End quote ---

You may be right on that one. But let's compare what Lasciel/Lash was doing before Harry empowered the steel circle (making Harry hear music in his mind) with what Lash did before he willingly used Hellfire in Dead Beat (she made him see and hear Shiela). Even if it did limit her, it certainly didn't limit her to the point that she couldn't make him see/hear stuff. It still seems to me that Lash on her own could have easily kept the music going in Harry's mind, rather than stopping as soon as he empowered the circle. So if she didn't stop because she had to, she must have stopped because she chose to, no?

prince lotore:
She did say she had to wait for harry to use hell fire to openly communicate with him. now i dont know if the limitation was because of the circle or that he activly didnt want the coin and was taking steps to limit its interaction with him.

knnn:
It goes like this:

1.  Harry touches the coin, and Lasciel gets a chance to talk to him, influence him.
2.  Lasciel knows that there's a chance Harry will cut her voice/power off using a circle, so she places a semi-autonomous entity in his brain.  If Harry never cuts Lasciel off, then the entity merely acts as a hand-puppet for everything Lasciel wants.  However, if Harry does succeed in cutting Lasciel's direct influence off, then the entity has enough AI to act autonomously until contact is restored.  Note also that the entity has its own power-source somewhere inside Harry - so it doesn't get cut off when the circle is empowered.

6.  Harry changes the _summoning_ circle in his basement.  It is never mentioned that he changes the (different, underground) circle that cut off Lasciel until Lash is already "dead".

7.  While the Fallen are vastly powerful, the amount of energy they can project on Earth when bound in a coin is obviously limited.  Heck, one of them dies by drowning.  How pathetic is that?

khatre:
points ..
2) is there any evidence that Lasciel contacted Lash or Harry after the coin was put in the circle and before Lasciel came back in GS?
3) Lash admits that she would Try to trick Harry but with the exception of the Shiela identity did Lash ever actually trick Harry? All she ever did was prove that she could force him to jump out of a window if she wanted then she pulled back before he actually jumped. What trick actually worked?
4) Lasciel being trapped in the circle fits the plot as easily. Lash can not gain independence and fall in a kind of love with Harry if Lasciel is constantly in contact with her.
5) When was the last time Lasciel had a coin holder? If it was After 197whatever then she could easily have known the song and what it means.
6) Harry did not change the circle between dropping the coin in it and when Lash "died" and Lascials brand vanished from his hand.
7) There are circles made to hold beings as powerful as fallen. The circle made to hold the loup garu was easily powerful enough and the ward to hold angles (fallen or otherwise) was only a part of that circle. The Vatican (or whoever the Knights work for) Should have done something  like this long long ago. Unfortunately they do not seem to work well with wizards (or any non WG powers).

I don't want to seem like a broken record but i really want to believe that Lash was her own person capable of making a choice to save Harry at the possible cost of her own "life".

knnn:

--- Quote from: khatre on March 14, 2012, 03:39:28 PM ---5) When was the last time Lasciel had a coin holder? If it was After 197whatever then she could easily have known the song and what it means.

--- End quote ---

For that matter, why couldn't she have pulled it from Harry's brain at the moment of contact?  We see that "Sheila" knows where the last two copies of "Der Erlking", are in Bock's store even though Harry isn't currently aware of them (the assumption is that she pulled them from his previous memories of glancing over the shelf).

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