The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
A Fallen scorned (GS spoilers)
Sydna:
--- Quote from: Vairelome on December 09, 2011, 08:22:04 PM ---I believe one of the consequences of Lasciel being the whispering shadow is that her coin must not be locked away behind a warding circle. It's at least strongly suggested that one of the effects of Lasciel's coin being buried in the concrete floor of Harry's lab was that Lash could diverge in personality and motivation from Lasciel. If Lasciel had been able to check up on the process while still being locked in two circles and buried, I don't think Harry could have had as strong an influence over time on Lash as he clearly did.
--- End quote ---
The coin was dug up at the end of White Night and given to Father Forthill.
Cozarkian:
--- Quote from: ebliss1 on December 07, 2011, 12:45:48 PM ---If Lasciel is really miffed at this upstart mortal who thinks he can not only defy her, but can actually turn her shadow away from her, then she is going to want to make him suffer for a good long time.
--- End quote ---
Not only does the upstart think he can defy her, he did. Harry might be the first person to ever cast off the shadow of a Fallen and he is almost certainly the first to ever cast off Lasciel's shadow and to reject the coin. Lasciel wants to nullify that victory as soon as possible.
Lasciel is probably uncertain how many more opportunities she will have to influence Harry and terrified that Harry might outmaneuver her again. I don't think Lasciel would risk the consequences of hatching long-run plans, she would look for the earliest and best opportunity to claim victory. Manipulating his suicide was probably the safest plan she could hatch to restore her pride; she can't risk failure a second time.
Vairelome:
--- Quote from: Sydna on December 09, 2011, 09:14:28 PM ---The coin was dug up at the end of White Night and given to Father Forthill.
--- End quote ---
Right, but at some point, the coin went from "effectively warded" in Harry's basement (whatever "effective" means, it permitted the creation of Lash as a separate entity) to "not effectively warded" wherever it is right now. I don't think that was part of Harry's/Father Forthill's plan.
At some point, a mistake was made, allowing Lasciel to influence Harry in a way she wasn't capable of while buried in Harry's basement. The first possibility is that Father Forthill's methodology was flawed, and whatever precautions he took just weren't sufficient--Lasciel broke herself out. The second possibility is that somehow, at some point, Father Forthill's methodology was compromised, and Lasciel was able to affect Harry again, apparently without Father Forthill knowing of this security failure--someone else broke Lasciel out. (The third possibility is that Father Forthill is actually a bad guy; I don't think this is true, but I'll list it for completeness.)
Oh, regarding Lasciel's motivations and how that would affect her choices regarding Harry, note the (very appropriate) title of this thread. Lasciel may be a subtle temptress normally, but the implications of the relevant WoJ is that she is currently motivated by FURY. Forcing Harry into what he thinks is suicide fits that combination pretty well, in my opinion.
Gman:
--- Quote from: Vairelome on December 10, 2011, 03:02:33 AM ---Right, but at some point, the coin went from "effectively warded" in Harry's basement (whatever "effective" means, it permitted the creation of Lash as a separate entity) to "not effectively warded" wherever it is right now. I don't think that was part of Harry's/Father Forthill's plan.
At some point, a mistake was made, allowing Lasciel to influence Harry in a way she wasn't capable of while buried in Harry's basement. The first possibility is that Father Forthill's methodology was flawed, and whatever precautions he took just weren't sufficient--Lasciel broke herself out. The second possibility is that somehow, at some point, Father Forthill's methodology was compromised, and Lasciel was able to affect Harry again, apparently without Father Forthill knowing of this security failure--someone else broke Lasciel out. (The third possibility is that Father Forthill is actually a bad guy; I don't think this is true, but I'll list it for completeness.)
Oh, regarding Lasciel's motivations and how that would affect her choices regarding Harry, note the (very appropriate) title of this thread. Lasciel may be a subtle temptress normally, but the implications of the relevant WoJ is that she is currently motivated by FURY. Forcing Harry into what he thinks is suicide fits that combination pretty well, in my opinion.
--- End quote ---
I think shadow Lash seperated from Lasiel before Harry had a chance to ward the coin. I strongly doubt Forthill is a bad guy. He had an Angel Of Death vouch for him and willing to protect his Soul if he died to make sure he went upstairs. Nick said they recover about half the coins from the church, so either so church guards get corrupted or Nick and company send people in to get them back.
Vairelome:
--- Quote from: Gman on December 10, 2011, 05:35:27 AM ---I think shadow Lash seperated from Lasiel before Harry had a chance to ward the coin.
--- End quote ---
Yes, obviously. My point was different: we can also infer that Harry's warding of the coin was effective at keeping Lasciel from influencing him directly while the coin was buried in his basement. If Lasciel had been able to whisper in his ear whenever she wanted to during that period, I think it's not at all likely the Lash-personality would have been able to diverge at all. Since Lash clearly became something other than merely Lasciel's proxy, I think we should draw the conclusion that Lasciel was not supervising during this time.
Assuming that Lasciel was the whispering shadow, clearly something changed about Lasciel's containment that permitted her to reach out of the coin and whisper to Harry. We know that Harry dug up the coin and gave it to Father Forthill for safekeeping. It seems pretty likely that the containment failure occurred after that--my question is when, how, and who was responsible for un-blocking Lasciel's ability to communicate with Harry.
If the answer turns out to be that Nicodemus walked into St. Mary's and walked out with Lasciel's coin, and has had it for some time, I think that would be a pretty big deal, don't you?
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