The Dresden Files > GS Book Club
Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
KurtinStGeorge:
Someone else expressed what I am about to say much better in another thread which I can't find, but it goes something like this:
What Mab said was a lie, but it was a lie that she believed. She wasn't knowingly telling a lie.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Ziggelly on December 19, 2011, 09:31:16 PM ---It really depends on what your definition of "lying" is. The fey can stretch the truth quite extensively.
--- End quote ---
And what Uriels definition of lying is. I assume that because he is speaking to Harry his is a mor human definition.
From Dead Beat:
--- Quote ---"You know, wizard, that I may speak no word
that is untrue. Thus is my word given to you."
--- End quote ---
You can deceive someone by telling incomplete truths leading to a wrong conclusion. Uriel and most humans would consider this lying because while all statements are true the underlying message is not. Language is communication and at the end it is the message that counts.
You can use ambivalent statements or statements that suggest more than they strictly mean. Human communication is full of that and it can make life interesting. But not in this setting. Again Uriel and most humans would consider the underlying suggestion a lie. Like the unseely accords the spirit of the text does not count for the Sidhe. But they know what it does to humans.
If we look at the lie/truth:
--- Quote ---“I have his oath, ancient one. What he has given is mine by right, and you may not gainsay it. He is mine to shape as I please.”
--- End quote ---
None of these statements are untrue. Only the last statement is open for different interpretations. Harrys interpretation is the one Mab wants Harry to believe but it is certainly not the correct one.
Like a sculptor and a piece of stone you are restricted in shaping it by the nature of the stone. The ways you can do so are also restricted by practical considerations. Some changes imply other changes you do not want. But nobody is going to interfere Mab trying.
There must be limits otherwise she could take any human and make it into what she wants. She would not have bothered with Harry.
Also while Mab can not change Harrys soul (Which is Uriels prime concern but maybe not Mabs. She just wants him to do what she wants and wants him to want to do so.) Harry can do so and Mab can try to make Harry do so. Harry should have been warned about that. It is what Eb said in Changes:
--- Quote ---“She might lean on you pretty hard. Try to put you into a box you don’t want to be in. But don’t let her. She can’t take away your will. Even if she can make it seem that way.” He sighed again, but there was bedrock in his voice. “That’s the one thing all these dark beings and powers can’t do. Take away your ability to choose. They can kill you. They can make you do things—but they can’t make you choose to do ’em. They almost always try to lie to you about that. Don’t fall for it.”
“I won’t,” I said. I looked up at him and said, “Thank you, Grandfather.”
--- End quote ---
That is what she was trying to do. Eb's warning was not enough but Uriels came at the right moment.
The lie is in the suggestion which does not count as an untruth because That was not Mab's saying. It was Harry himself.
fiorenzo:
Hello! I'm new to the forum (first post) and just finished reading Ghost Story. I enjoyed the story immensely -- I love all the shout outs to geek culture and I just couldn't wait to see how Harry would pull out of this one since he was "dead" -- but I have a question about the premise of the book. I apologize if this have already been discussed:
I understand that when Harry was shot on the boat and fell into the water, Mab took his body and saved it from physically dying. Then, if I understand correctly, Harry's soul (spirit?) went to the "spirit" Chicago. Uriel wanted to right an imbalance that occurred when the Fallen angel whispered to Harry. But I thought the re-balancing was achieved by Uriel's own seven whispered words, which didn't occur until after Harry returned to his body in the care of Mab and Demonreach.
So, what's up with everything that happened in between? It seems that the goal was for Harry to discover that he arranged for his own death -- and, apparently, Uriel and co. were not allowed to directly tell him this fact -- but why? Why was Uriel concerned with Harry being aware? If Harry (the ghost) had not gone on the adventures described in this book, would his soul not have just shot straight to his body where Mab and Demonreach were nursing it? Sure, he would not have known about the circumstances of his death, but Uriel could still have whispered his seven words of encouragement. It seems, that by holding up Harry's soul for 6 months and then sending him back on this mission of discovery and conveniently foiling the Corpsetaker's plans, Uriel was meddling a lot in mortal affairs.
Not that I'm complaining; it made for a very entertaining story. It just seems that Uriel went way beyond "balancing" the Fallen angel's action. Uriel must have way more latitude than some other angels, like the angel of death who was standing by in case Forthill died.
dmcgr19800:
Which Shadow influenced him? Lasciel? The daughter of Nicodemos? Nicodemus himself?
Has Mab bitten off more than she can chew enlisting Harry to be a winter knight?
Will he and his god-mother usurp Mab? Freeing Harry?
How powerful is mouse?
During Ghost Story Harry's was not dead. How could he be a shade / spirit ?
TheCuriousFan:
--- Quote --- Will he and his god-mother usurp Mab? Freeing Harry?
--- End quote ---
Of course not, all that would do is make sure Lea is Winter Queen (or Winter Lady) instead of Mab, in addition to causing horrible problems for Earth and unbalancing the Faerie Courts.
--- Quote ---How powerful is mouse?
--- End quote ---
It appears to vary, sometimes he's weaker than Kumori, other times he's stronger than Lea.
--- Quote ---Which Shadow influenced him?
--- End quote ---
We'll find out, a fair portion of this forum thinks Lasciel though.
--- Quote ---Has Mab bitten off more than she can chew enlisting Harry to be a winter knight?
--- End quote ---
Probably not.
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