McAnally's (The Community Pub) > Author Craft
Genre Craft: Expectations of a Hybrid Genre
Quantus:
Not trying to push specific ideas on you, so obviously ignore any and all of this if you want, but here's some more I came up with for your magic system. I love me some magic systems, and used to love building custom settings and magic for various RP campaigns, back in the day. This is giving me a much needed outlet for nerdly creativity, so bear with me.
1. Arcane Science:
The users of this would be the learned. Centers of that learning and development would be largely in the Old World, which imports coming out to the Fontier to ply their trade. In a given town they would be the equivalent of the Blacksmith. They have teh knowldge to make things others could barely understand, and lots of pet projects, but the average workday is repairing the basic impliments of Magic #2 used in everyday life. Charging them may be a big part of that, if you specifically don't want the average person to be able to do that.
2. Magic from another Magical Container
This would fit best as the baseline, "for-the-masses" type of magic; the stuff the average person uses to drive their kitchen or plow their fields. It would take an actual user of the Arcane Sciences to create or modify one, but an average user could do the basic maintenance like charging the thing. May require an established source device, like a well of magical energies. For example, you could charge something from a natural spring but it would be less regulated/clean and may damage the device, wheras a specifically crafted well would do it without those dangers.
The Places of power would be great drivers for the frontier economy. Where Old West towns grew up around mines, rivers, forest resources etc, the Frontier towns could grow up around energy nexii (nexuses?), which would give great fodder for the character of different towns (like how a mining town is vastly different than a Logging town, which is vastly different from a town based on fishing or river trade.
The portable nature of the Objects could be overpowering unless they are either difficult to move, temporary in power, or generally rare and valuable. Would they be living things, inanimate objects, or both depending on element? Are we talking salamanders, water nymphs, and sylvan wood spirits, or more like a magical mineral mined like gold, special water from a magic spring, etc. Basically, would you buy one in a general store or a stable, would it get a name like a hourse or mule (or potentially caged and neglected).
Container items would need to me inately safer than the basic Arcane tools, as they would need to mainain their charge. Id say make them less flexible in their effect. Like a mage with a full Fire staff could do all kinds of fire effects with the staff acting as battery, but the Container verions might only be able to produce a kitchen fire, or heat metal, or create a 3 ft beam of fire out one end.
3. Shamanism and other uses of Spirits
This is an interesting contrast to the arcne sciences. It would fit well with the idea of a more naturalistic culture, and a tribal one, ie. your indians. And since you have different methods/views on how to go about interacting with them, that might be a good line to divide the different tribes of elves (or not if you dont like that idea). One big theme with native americans was that there were vast differences between the various tribes, with some being dangerous and war-like while others were passive and peaceful, however the white man often failed to learn the difference, and usually expect the worst from all the others.
4. Ancestral Memory
This would fit perfectly with the idea of a subjegated race, and secret knowledge preserved under the noses of their overlords. It would also lend itself to explaining why they were subjegated in the first place, with certain families being kept and bred for specific tasks which their overlords convince themselves they are born to do and thus are happy to do as slaves forever, etc etc. Lots of fertile ground for story seeds of the oppressed rising up (or maybe quietly resisting from the shadows), and I enjoy the notion that the derided, pitied, and/or percieved as inferior race actually has a much longer history and rich culture, just in a form their masters cannot recognize.
"Faith Magic"
If you aren't looking to make it a big thing, maybe you should deliberately leave it a bit unexplained. Have it follow some of the rules and break others for each category, to the great confusion of the rest. Like it acts like a shamanistic magic in many ways, but there is no detectable spirit (despite the priest obviously invoking a diety/spirit). Let it have a container-like focus, but with an unidentifiable energy siganture, or one that never seems to need recahrging. Making one of the elements types previously unknown and behind this branch could work as an alternative; Im thinking Spirit in this instance, as a class of element that the arcane sciences have never heard of, or maybe actively deride, like cold-fusion or perpetual motion. In any case Id make a central point of how their magic-like works break all the known rules and baffle the arcanists. Or take it a step further and make certain things completely out of bounds for all other magics but somehow possible for the Priests. Healing magics would make sense for that, as i think you said you don't want to have much common ealing.
In setting, Priests could be a new thing to have poped up recently that most others dont really understand, but dont actually fear. It could be organized into an actual cult/church, or be more typical as a isolated community that is converting to the new way, even a solitary wanderer spreading the good word.
OZ:
--- Quote ---(Temp name. I don't like the idea of Spirit).
--- End quote ---
How about breath? In some cultures they are considered similar or even identical.
Haru:
--- Quote from: Lanodantheon on July 05, 2011, 06:35:21 PM ---1. Arcane Science: Your standard, vanilla Newtonian Physics influenced Magic. The stuff Wizards are made of. This one is the most unoriginal of the 4, but it's a classic trope for a reason. It works.
My variation on it uses 7 elements: Water, Fire, Earth, Air, Mind, Body and "Spirit" (Temp name. I don't like the idea of Spirit). Body represents anything with a biological cell structure. A Bodyslinger could just as easily work with Trees and Grass as they could with the human body.
--- End quote ---
How about aether? At least to me it seems that is pretty much what you want, and there is also a physical concept of aether (though no longer in use today), which would fall neatly in line with your Newtonian physics magic, I think.
Which btw. gave me an idea for the concept of relativistic magic, if there is too much magic at one place (for example a big magic battle), it will distort time, and a battle of 5 minutes might last 10 years, depending on the perspective. Man, I wish I could study magic in real life...
--- Quote ---2. Magic from another Magical Container
You can get power from an outside Container. Some Magical creatures do magic on their own. You can tap one of these creatures for power. From the equivalent of tapping an electric eel for your battery to tapping the Fire Magic of that Fire Spirit.
There also places and objects that draw in their own Power that you can Tap and get power that way.
--- End quote ---
So this would especially be good with a familiar of some sort, an animal companion that provides the magical power to its master. I like the idea.
--- Quote ---3. Shamanism and other uses of Spirits
Getting a Spirit or Magical Animal of some kind to do your work for you is another way to Power.
One of the Cultures I'm developing I literally call Gentleman Shamans who treat Mediumship with a perspective of Metaphysical economics. They literally having commanding Spirits and Animals down to a science or at least a cultural norm. Played straight, this culture of animals and spirits doing stuff for humans en-masse in an organized hive-mind fashion could look cool. But, it's also a step away from conjuring images that are all kinds of F****d up.
One sub-culture uses fair trade, one enslaves spirits and animals outright and another directly channels them through their own body.
--- End quote ---
Now this is interesting. Great minds think alike, as they say.
I've been working on something very similar, but every magic that is used is based on the spirit or soul of a being. Most of the time there are wizards that imprison the souls of spirits, elementals and demons (yes, in this case they do have a soul. Or an essence or whatever you might want to call it), and can then channel the souls power to cast magic. Usually only spirits and elementals are used, because demons are just to powerful. Imprisoning those souls is almost industrialized and are imprisoned in specially prepared bottles. The protagonist though is one of very few people who ever imprisoned a demons soul, and he's got it in an old Gatorade bottle. ;D
And of course there are those who channel spirits directly through their body, or rather keep the soul inside their body. Those are mostly what would be were-somethings in other worlds.
This entire thing brings me back to your sword problem. My world is set somewhere 20 years into the future, but swords will still play a mayor roll. There are swords (mostly military uses it, but mercenaries and others tend to get their hands on some, too) that can be infused with the harvested souls mentioned above. To do so, there are standardised vials, that fit into the handle of the swords and can be filled with any soul that is available. Usually the "Binders" fill them up (like I said, on a massive, industrial scale) for non magic soldiers to use. A sword can hold only 1 vial at any time, so the soldiers have a pack of vials on their belt to change if need be. It is especially for infusing a sword with fire to fight ice elementals and similar rock-paper-scissor things. Anyone who has a sword like that takes special care of his soulpack (the vials), so it is not unusual to find older soldiers with 20 or more different types of souls in their pack, and most of them will be a lot stronger than the standard ones. Yes, I did originally think of this for an rpg system. :D
--- Quote ---4. Ancestral Memory
Essentially the Magical version of Genetic Memory. In this case it ranges from having a number of Obi-Wan Kenobi-style ghosts following you and teaching you throughout your lifetime to just instinctively knowing how to farm without ever being taught. Such things are both passed along in families in a sort of Mantle and are placed directly in Magical objects you can pass from person to person.
--- End quote ---
Does it work like the magic under 1 and they just don't have to learn, or is it something else entirely?
--- Quote ---"Faith Magic" would be a combination of these 4 in some way depending on what you're doing. I don't like the idea of it as a seperate branch because to me an "Ocean of Power that is Faith" sounds hokey. It also doesn't help that I'm not religious.
But, I also can't let the opportunity to pass to explore the birth of a new religion. The Old West was the era when the LDS Church came into being. As an author, I have to explore that kind of thing in some capacity. Especially since in a world of Arcane Science, the argument between "what is a God?" and "What is a really powerful Wizard?" is a fraught landscape.
So, even if I don't have Faith Magic, I will explore how Religion deals with the presence of Magic and Magic-users. What happens when the new Messiah CAN do miracles that baffle Wizards?
--- End quote ---
It would be quite interesting, if faith magic was something exclusive to the frontier. In the old world, people don't believe in gods or anything, because some of them are pretty close to one. The frontier puts fear for your survival back into those people, so some might begin to worship a god, one way or another.
But regardless of the specific kinds of magic you are using, I personally find it very confusing to have so many different types of magic flying around. I like it better, when there is one principle of magic that can be used in different ways. The outcome might be similar to what you have now, but it seems more satisfactory to me, if there is a base theory about it. That way the magic is not simply put on top of the world, but it is truly part of it and feels that way. But I am a physics nerd when it comes to this, so YMMV.
Lanodantheon:
--- Quote from: Quantus on July 05, 2011, 06:41:21 PM ---
How deep are you planning to go with the Magic in the world. By that I mean, is Magic replacing Technology, or is it replacing Physics?
--- End quote ---
Magic replacing Technology.
--- Quote from: Quantus on July 05, 2011, 06:41:21 PM ---I really like this Idea, so Ive been rolling it around in my head all weekend. Near as I can come up with, these are the basic setting elements you'll want to replicate/address in order to preserve a Western feel:
The Old World - To provide a contrast to the Frontier of the "west"
Indians - A "savage" race. Primative, tribal and/or nomadic, naturalistic. Not seen as equals and/or human. Large language/cultural barrier. Original inhabitants of the Land, now being displaced by the "white man" settlers. Probably a great role for your elven race.
Slaves - Not nessesary to the "westen" feel persay, but historically relevant, especially if you have it set near a Civil War event (either leading up to a war or set in reconstruction after). Offhand, I would say the Dwarves would be a good fit: short but strong makes them good for manual labor, could have knowledge of things lost to the "Modern" way of thinking, kept alive in secret. They could also give a whole new meaning to the "Underground Railroad" ;)
--- End quote ---
Glad you like it, it seems I may have an audience for this.
In regards to Non-humans like Elves and Dwarves, I had 2 design rules for them. 1) They are Species not "Races". They are not human in any sense of the word. 2) IF I did non-humans at all, they'd have to be compelling and Dwarves would have to be made more interesting that Elves (Because Elves are always put onto a pedestal by every author, game designer and fanboy ever and as a result I HATE ELVES...) and the bar so far is that my Elves/Orcs are actually Greco-Roman ;D. Dwarves are even more interesting...
The Dwarves as Slaves and Elves/Orcs as Indians (The Romanticized Noble Savage thing as opposed to true Native Americans) did not occur to me except in passing. Thinking about it now I may have to give it more thought but I feel bad. I feel really bad about feeling attracted to the idea of enslaving one Sapient Species and giving the other Small Pox.... That's just wrong....
--- Quote from: Quantus on July 05, 2011, 06:41:21 PM ---
Transportation - This depends heavily on your magic system and how prevalent you want to make it, but you need the same basic levels of travel:
-Horse - or similar aminal mount
-stagecoaches - or similar, basically just a slightly more comfortable than mounted travel
-trains - just make them magically driven instead of steam.
Or you can look at them a little more abstractly, and just keep the actual story impact elements. Like instead of Trains you maybe have a portal system that transports people from station to station (sending people through ether-streams or ley lines or something); it;s still fast, capable of providing a large econimic motivation, is the main means to move large volumes of people/goods to the Frontier, is schedule driven (which is what started novel new things like standardized time zones and such), and is generally safer from the dangers of the Frontier than a coach-ride.
--- End quote ---
Not sure on this one yet except that I need Magecoaches and Dragontrains. Don't ask why. :-X
--- Quote from: Quantus on July 05, 2011, 06:41:21 PM ---Weapons - The west was a time when guns had displaced swords as the primary tool for killing men.
-Guns
-Pistol - Basic self defense tool, various levels of sophistication, close to mid range
-Shotgun - the big hitter, shorter range, slow/limited shots
-rifle - long distance, prescision tool. Takes higher skill level to use properly
-Cannons - Bulky military weapon, more seige unit than anti-personelle. Costly, unwieldy, and powerful. Improper use will likely kill everyone nearby.
-Hand
-Dangerous tools, but have been displaced by "guns" as the specialized man-killing tool.
-Savages. Whatever the Indian analog will be uses older, more primative (at least to the white man's eyes) weapons, which are usually outclassed/overpowered by the modern guns.
-Still seen in military units, but typically more ceremonial than most (think Calvalry/officer's saber)
--- End quote ---
Thanks, that's actually a good guide for the Magical Arms race.
Will reply to the other new posts a little later.
Lanodantheon:
--- Quote from: Quantus on July 05, 2011, 07:58:09 PM ---Not trying to push specific ideas on you, so obviously ignore any and all of this if you want, but here's some more I came up with for your magic system. I love me some magic systems, and used to love building custom settings and magic for various RP campaigns, back in the day. This is giving me a much needed outlet for nerdly creativity, so bear with me.
1. Arcane Science:
The users of this would be the learned. Centers of that learning and development would be largely in the Old World, which imports coming out to the Fontier to ply their trade. In a given town they would be the equivalent of the Blacksmith. They have teh knowldge to make things others could barely understand, and lots of pet projects, but the average workday is repairing the basic impliments of Magic #2 used in everyday life. Charging them may be a big part of that, if you specifically don't want the average person to be able to do that.
--- End quote ---
Not sure how common-place magic users will be yet, but for the most part they will augment normally existing professions. For example, a Blacksmith is still a blacksmith with all the normal tools of a blacksmith. Having a Fireslinger or an Earth/Metalslinger around to help you melt or shape the metal would be the same blacksmith with more high-tech equipment.
You are correct about Arcane Science being the place of the Learned. Keeping that knowledge proprietary and failing at it is a big part of my plans. ;D
--- Quote from: Quantus on July 05, 2011, 07:58:09 PM ---
2. Magic from another Magical Container
This would fit best as the baseline, "for-the-masses" type of magic; the stuff the average person uses to drive their kitchen or plow their fields. It would take an actual user of the Arcane Sciences to create or modify one, but an average user could do the basic maintenance like charging the thing. May require an established source device, like a well of magical energies. For example, you could charge something from a natural spring but it would be less regulated/clean and may damage the device, wheras a specifically crafted well would do it without those dangers.
The Places of power would be great drivers for the frontier economy. Where Old West towns grew up around mines, rivers, forest resources etc, the Frontier towns could grow up around energy nexii (nexuses?), which would give great fodder for the character of different towns (like how a mining town is vastly different than a Logging town, which is vastly different from a town based on fishing or river trade.
The portable nature of the Objects could be overpowering unless they are either difficult to move, temporary in power, or generally rare and valuable. Would they be living things, inanimate objects, or both depending on element? Are we talking salamanders, water nymphs, and sylvan wood spirits, or more like a magical mineral mined like gold, special water from a magic spring, etc. Basically, would you buy one in a general store or a stable, would it get a name like a hourse or mule (or potentially caged and neglected).
Container items would need to me inately safer than the basic Arcane tools, as they would need to mainain their charge. Id say make them less flexible in their effect. Like a mage with a full Fire staff could do all kinds of fire effects with the staff acting as battery, but the Container verions might only be able to produce a kitchen fire, or heat metal, or create a 3 ft beam of fire out one end.
--- End quote ---
Haven't designed the commonplace Magic like that yet. A better name for number 2 would be "Sponsored Magic" but I'm hesitant to use that term, 1) because it is also used in RPGs and 2) because it denotes a connection to something really powerful being the source of the power whereas in my system it could just be potential energy you would otherwise use for #1.
--- Quote from: Quantus on July 05, 2011, 07:58:09 PM ---
3. Shamanism and other uses of Spirits
This is an interesting contrast to the arcne sciences. It would fit well with the idea of a more naturalistic culture, and a tribal one, ie. your indians. And since you have different methods/views on how to go about interacting with them, that might be a good line to divide the different tribes of elves (or not if you dont like that idea). One big theme with native americans was that there were vast differences between the various tribes, with some being dangerous and war-like while others were passive and peaceful, however the white man often failed to learn the difference, and usually expect the worst from all the others.
--- End quote ---
Although this does shout, "Native Americans" especially when combined with Animal shapechanging...that to me is too obvious. Whenever I go through in my head of describing the idea of "Swords & Sorcery Western" I think about the other person going, "Let me guess...Native Americans like WoW Druids, hahaha..." and I want to respond to that, "No, actually something better..."
There are normally 2 responses to Spirits and Mediumship: 1) Kill them with fire, 2) worship them. What I wanted was a culture that picked the third option: Milking it for all it's worth and making an Urbanized civilization out of it. Hence, The Gentleman Shamans. Which also have a connect to the romantic notion of "Jolly old England" being descended from Beowulf, which I find interesting and times humorous.
--- Quote from: Quantus on July 05, 2011, 07:58:09 PM ---
4. Ancestral Memory
This would fit perfectly with the idea of a subjegated race, and secret knowledge preserved under the noses of their overlords. It would also lend itself to explaining why they were subjegated in the first place, with certain families being kept and bred for specific tasks which their overlords convince themselves they are born to do and thus are happy to do as slaves forever, etc etc. Lots of fertile ground for story seeds of the oppressed rising up (or maybe quietly resisting from the shadows), and I enjoy the notion that the derided, pitied, and/or percieved as inferior race actually has a much longer history and rich culture, just in a form their masters cannot recognize.
--- End quote ---
Placing Ancestral Memories into objects also allows for a nice economy of information and a culture that developed without the need for literacy.
--- Quote from: Quantus on July 05, 2011, 07:58:09 PM ---"Faith Magic"
If you aren't looking to make it a big thing, maybe you should deliberately leave it a bit unexplained. Have it follow some of the rules and break others for each category, to the great confusion of the rest. Like it acts like a shamanistic magic in many ways, but there is no detectable spirit (despite the priest obviously invoking a diety/spirit). Let it have a container-like focus, but with an unidentifiable energy siganture, or one that never seems to need recahrging. Making one of the elements types previously unknown and behind this branch could work as an alternative; Im thinking Spirit in this instance, as a class of element that the arcane sciences have never heard of, or maybe actively deride, like cold-fusion or perpetual motion. In any case Id make a central point of how their magic-like works break all the known rules and baffle the arcanists. Or take it a step further and make certain things completely out of bounds for all other magics but somehow possible for the Priests. Healing magics would make sense for that, as i think you said you don't want to have much common ealing.
In setting, Priests could be a new thing to have poped up recently that most others dont really understand, but dont actually fear. It could be organized into an actual cult/church, or be more typical as a isolated community that is converting to the new way, even a solitary wanderer spreading the good word.
--- End quote ---
I'll see where I go with it but that is some good food for thought. Thanks.
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