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Genre Craft: Expectations of a Hybrid Genre

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Lanodantheon:
Rather than discuss story ideas that could ruin other people's plans, I wanted to discuss some writing craft that can get quite advanced, Genre. Specifically Hybrid genres. When I through that word Genre around, I specifically refer to the common themes, structures, character archetypes, aesthetics and such that codify a group of artistic works.

Genres are not necessary or accurate things, but they can be a helpful guide when planning a story. Genres are formulas that follow a cycle...but The Genre Cycle is a really advanced thing that is way ahead of this topic.

Every Genre has expectations in terms of characters, settings, plots, etc. Merging two of them together is both the art of making something distinctive while as a science must balance the expectations of both genres.

In particular, I'm working on a story that I can best describe to myself and others as a Swords & Sorcery-Western. I'm not trying to break new ground with this, just spin a good yarn and I need some help with it. And put The Gunslinger by Stephen King out of your mind, because I'm not trying to copy a series of books I haven't read and couldn't get into.

To be more specific, by Swords & Sorcery I mean, "Wizards slinging around Fireballs and Lightning Bolts while Swordsman make with massive swordfights again st all manner of monster, evil person and/or Godlike entity" in a pseudo-medieval setting of High Fantasy.  By Western I mean, "The iconography, themes, stories and characters of the Romantic notion of The American Old West" and because of my personal tastes, it's not a real Western until you kill more men then Cecil B. DeMille.

Note: In Cinema studies of Genre, the American Western is interchangeable with the Japanese Samurai films, specifically the old-fashioned period pieces(Jidaigeki) and the Chanbara sub-genre. 

The issues I've been having have been, well guns. I have no problem with Guns in High Fantasy. But, I want melee combat to still be strong. I want sword fights and people slinging Magic to be a common plot element.  But, The Western is kind of the natural environ for the Gun. "The Gun won The West" as they say. Plus, Guns relate to the Ideology of the Western Genre in that it represents individual Freedom, etc, etc(Film Theory stuff). And, one the classic Western yarns is the wronged boy who picks up a gun to become a man.

The other issue is that my Main Character is a Wizard of ill-repute and I wonder if I want him to just sling spells, carry a gun AND Sling spells OR carry a gun to sling spells. The setting is also looking to include Da Vinci-inspired Magical Artifices such as advanced Crossbows as well, but I'm not warm to the idea of having a Crossbow stand in for a Gun.

The issues I have boil down to 2 questions:

1. Can you have a self-defined "Swords & Sorcery-Western" story without Firearms of any kind or is the self-description of a "Western" require Firearms to be present? Would you as a reader be let down by picking up a story describing itself as a Western without any guns or gunplay in it or could you be satisfied with it being replaced with Chanbara-style swordfights?

The main question though is thus:

2. What options are there to do the classic Western trope of the Fast Draw at High Noon with a Main character is a Wizard of Ill-repute, not a Swordsman?  Similarly, there's the classic scene from a Fistful of Dollars/Yojimbo where the Man With No Name proves how badass he is by killing a bunch of guys in a matter of moments in a fast draw. How could you do that iconic scene with a Wizard other than *Raise hand* *Fireball* *Done*?

meg_evonne:
1. Fun combo, but it sounds like you'd have to market it as a fantasy. Those western guys are quite a unique group of readers and this would throw them off. If they climb on the wagon later, I think that would be cool. I mean, think of Firefly. Putting in horses and western clothes was not going to bring in the 'western' genre in my opinion. Even the soon to be released Aliens and Cowboys isn't going to bring in the true 'western' folk.

2. Refer to any of Harry's battles, but the one on Wrigley with the Red Court Vamp comes immediately to mind.  A good exercise for you would be to watch Fistful of Dollars and simply rewrite it screen by screen as a wizard battle--it will read, well see, the same I would think.  Note that I said 'exercise' not include as part of your writing. Another fun one to re-write as an exercise would be the James Marsters gun fight in the Torchwood series.  Those should give you a comfort level at finding the details between 'fireball' and 'done'. LOL  Just a reminder to not over power your main character or it isn't any fun to read.

Vryce:
First I want to say like the idea, and I totally get where you are coming from on the questions and if it can work.

I was working on something similar.   The idea was what would happen if magic had always been around and it was modern day.  I like the idea of trying to explain what was item of technology would never have been made and what could have happened if we had the ability to sling energy around.

So when you ask your questions here is what I had sitting already in the back of my head.

1)   Can you have a self-defined "Swords & Sorcery-Western" story without Firearms of any kind or is the self-description of a "Western" require Firearms to be present? Would you as a reader be let down by picking up a story describing itself as a Western without any guns or gunplay in it or could you be satisfied with it being replaced with Chanbara-style swordfights?
I would say yes, and here is some way.  Why was the firearm created.  To give a weapon to a solider that could penetrate armor/shield and was relatively easy to train with.  Its why we stopped wearing mass amount of metal armor, well until our tech. got good enough that we understood the way bullets moved and Kevlar was invented.   So in your world would a gun ever be needed if you had wizards running around.  Could an Artificer simply have created a wand/rod or other type of weapon that the mundane could use and act like a gun.  Lots of books and movies bring up wand duals, and I think this would work great in a western setting.
Then you brought up the melee combat and still have strong Gun/wand play.  Ways to keep this going, would be to find a reason why it is.  Could be as easy as wizards or talisman can put of a shield that stops the wand energy from getting to them, but it is a lot harder to stop a sword in the gut.  Or limited amount of charges in the Wand/Gun.  If you have a wizard that can stop a few blasts of gun or wand fire, might be  nice to have a sturdy sword as a back up.  Or spell eaters, maybe a race or group of people that are like an anti-mage or can absorb energy of spells thrown at them but a nice dagger to the back works well.  Lots of ideas on that reason.

2)    What options are there to do the classic Western trope of the Fast Draw at High Noon with a Main character is a Wizard of Ill-repute, not a Swordsman?  Similarly, there's the classic scene from a Fistful of Dollars/Yojimbo where the Man With No Name proves how badass he is by killing a bunch of guys in a matter of moments in a fast draw. How could you do that iconic scene with a Wizard other than *Raise hand* *Fireball* *Done*?
I talked about wizards wand dueling above, I think this would just take it to the next level.  I see spell slinging a lot like the old western duals. 

Hope this helps

Quantus:
Fantastic Idea, I like the direction you are coming at it from.

To make a good hybrid work, from what Ive seen, you really need to strip it down to its key elements.  In the case of a Western, its all about the Frontier Idea.  You need a main setting to be vast expanses of wilderness with dots of rough civilization spread through it, usually located in some strategic place (natural resources, transportaion hub etc).  There needs to be an area of higher industrial/technological development "elsewhere" that contrasts the rough frontier mentality of the main setting ("Back East" in traditional westerns, the Core in Firefly, etc).  Its this place where the quality finished goods will come from, though there can also be rougher/cheaper local versions.  A western is typically a fight for resources: a farm, a mine, a river, a stretch of land for a railroad, etc.


EDIT:  Its quitin' time!  I have more and will post it when I get home  :)

Lanodantheon:

--- Quote from: meg_evonne on June 29, 2011, 04:52:10 PM ---1. Fun combo, but it sounds like you'd have to market it as a fantasy. Those western guys are quite a unique group of readers and this would throw them off. If they climb on the wagon later, I think that would be cool. I mean, think of Firefly. Putting in horses and western clothes was not going to bring in the 'western' genre in my opinion. Even the soon to be released Aliens and Cowboys isn't going to bring in the true 'western' folk.


--- End quote ---

It's fantasy first, yes. It's just High Fantasy through the Lens of a Western. What I wonder is how much of that lens to use.

The Aesthetics and themes of the Western are what I'm trying to include. The connection to the history of the frontier and the genre as a whole.


--- Quote from: meg_evonne on June 29, 2011, 04:52:10 PM ---2. Refer to any of Harry's battles, but the one on Wrigley with the Red Court Vamp comes immediately to mind.  A good exercise for you would be to watch Fistful of Dollars and simply rewrite it screen by screen as a wizard battle--it will read, well see, the same I would think.  Note that I said 'exercise' not include as part of your writing. Another fun one to re-write as an exercise would be the James Marsters gun fight in the Torchwood series.  Those should give you a comfort level at finding the details between 'fireball' and 'done'. LOL  Just a reminder to not over power your main character or it isn't any fun to read.

--- End quote ---

I've been developing the Magic system and recently the thought of charging up has interested me as a way of visualizing the calm before the storm of battle.

In terms of power level, no worries it's being managed. Like Whedon before me, my literature is based on my main character's suffering, misery and injuries. :D

In terms of the Fistful of Dollars exercise, I've thought of like 5 ways to do it, I just don't know which to pick.




--- Quote from: Vryce on June 29, 2011, 05:10:48 PM ---
1)   
I would say yes, and here is some way.  Why was the firearm created?  To give a weapon to a solider that could penetrate armor/shield and was relatively easy to train with.  Its why we stopped wearing mass amount of metal armor, well until our tech. got good enough that we understood the way bullets moved and Kevlar was invented.   So in your world would a gun ever be needed if you had wizards running around.  Could an Artificer simply have created a wand/rod or other type of weapon that the mundane could use and act like a gun.  Lots of books and movies bring up wand duals, and I think this would work great in a western setting.
Then you brought up the melee combat and still have strong Gun/wand play.  Ways to keep this going, would be to find a reason why it is.  Could be as easy as wizards or talisman can put of a shield that stops the wand energy from getting to them, but it is a lot harder to stop a sword in the gut.  Or limited amount of charges in the Wand/Gun.  If you have a wizard that can stop a few blasts of gun or wand fire, might be  nice to have a sturdy sword as a back up.  Or spell eaters, maybe a race or group of people that are like an anti-mage or can absorb energy of spells thrown at them but a nice dagger to the back works well.  Lots of ideas on that reason.


--- End quote ---

Magic Anti-Projectile Armor did occur to me. I subscribe to the idea that if Knights had been entirely bullet-proof they'd still be around. Rick Gillard, the stuntmaster for Star Wars said, "If these Jedi are using swords in a universe of Laser guns, they better be pretty damn good with them."

How much magic a Wizard can bring to bare is a concern. I've been developing my Magic system with something akin to an observable ammo capacity so that you can have the classic Western situation of 6 bullets left in your gun, but 7 bad guys still alive.



--- Quote from: Vryce on June 29, 2011, 05:10:48 PM ---2)   
I talked about wizards wand dueling above, I think this would just take it to the next level.  I see spell slinging a lot like the old western duels. 


--- End quote ---

That's what I was thinking too, but I meant aesthetically. Need to be able to get that draw of the fast draw. As I mentioned above, I've been playing with the idea of gathering energy. Kinda like DBZ now that I think of it only no shouting.



--- Quote from: Quantus on June 29, 2011, 09:22:33 PM ---To make a good hybrid work, from what Ive seen, you really need to strip it down to its key elements.  In the case of a Western, its all about the Frontier Idea.  You need a main setting to be vast expanses of wilderness with dots of rough civilization spread through it, usually located in some strategic place (natural resources, transportaion hub etc).  There needs to be an area of higher industrial/technological development "elsewhere" that contrasts the rough frontier mentality of the main setting ("Back East" in traditional westerns, the Core in Firefly, etc).  Its this place where the quality finished goods will come from, though there can also be rougher/cheaper local versions.  A western is typically a fight for resources: a farm, a mine, a river, a stretch of land for a railroad, etc.
EDIT:  Its quitin' time!  I have more and will post it when I get home  :)

--- End quote ---

Already ahead of you there. For reference, the story's frontier is basically what used to be Mordor. An entire continent that has been until recently completely uncharted for the duration of human memory.

Well, back to work. more on this later.

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