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Dismissing Conjurations (which has turned into another Laws of Magic thread)

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Moriden:
Quoting Iago

--- Quote ---Creating a weapon is not a first law violation. Using a weapon to murder is. (A riff on "guns don't kill people, people do" but I think it's valid.)
--- End quote ---

Or as i have repeatedly phrased it, successfully using magic to kill gets you lawbreaker regardless of the description of what that magic looks like, or your intent when you cast the spell.


And yes if you cast the spell to kill someone and fail it should change your aspects just like lawbreaker would you just don't get the actual stunt.

iago:
Remember Harry's line: You can't do anything with magic you don't believe you can do. Killing is a part of that (even accidental killing; in retrospect, that eats into you and changes you too, though perhaps not so potently as doing it with intent does).  Believing you can create a weapon is one thing. Believing you can use that weapon to do harm is quite another.

Though even there I'm shaky when the weapon is mundane, or used mundanely like a sword-stroke and so forth, since it's really about using *magic*; the reason Wardens carry those swords, supposedly, is so that they won't violate the First Law when they execute a warlock.

But here's the other thing: this is all opinion, from me, by intention. The subtext of the Laws discussion in the RPG is not "and this is how it is always with no wiggle". It's meant to say, how the Laws are interpreted -- both in-character as a body of Law that the Wardens enforce, and in-system as to when one is required to take (or expand) a Lawbreaker ability -- is something to be explored as you play the game. It's a journey, and as your game travels along that path certain themes should emerge.  One game's themes might point away from the idea that the Laws-as-enforced-by-the-Wardens-matches-the-Laws-as-enforced-upon-your-soul; another's might insistently point towards it, suggesting that the Laws as laid down by the Council are Laws Of The Universe that have been uncovered and codified.

Rel Fexive:
And I think the "that might be how it is in your game, but it is different in mine" aspect of using the Laws in games is the most important thing to remember when discussing them.  No one is wrong, everyone is right (for them).  Except Jim, who's probably always right for everyone ;)

iago:

--- Quote from: Rel Fexive on April 24, 2010, 04:14:01 PM --- Except Jim, who's probably always right for everyone ;)

--- End quote ---

Or at least, right for the game he's running for Harry. ;)

Moriden:

--- Quote ---And I think the "that might be how it is in your game, but it is different in mine" aspect of using the Laws in games is the most important thing to remember when discussing them.  No one is wrong, everyone is right (for them).  Except Jim, who's probably always right for everyone
--- End quote ---

This is unfortunately as much a flaw as a strength. without a clear, understandable, and universally true way that the laws work ooc then you will have radicaly different interpretations on them, this is good in that aindividual st is not "tied down" in there implementation and bad because most st's are not in anyway skilled enough orators, debators, or writers to actually express there individual interpreation and as such you will have many players who think they ooc know how the laws work get a rather harsh surprise when they get slapped with lawbreaker and are told there charecter is now unplayable.

Transparency and consistency are good... yes freedom for individual its is good[or so i'm told]. but you can take it to far and i believe this is an example of that. 

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