The Dresden Files > DFRPG
The First Law Question.
Deadmanwalking:
I disagree. Being human and being a good, honorable, individual are not the same thing. And neither is the same as having free will.
Assuming you had the power, you could kill Eldest Brother Gruff without breaking the First Law, for all that he's a nice enough guy. I'd say the same would be true of a humane White Court Vampire. They may be nice enough, but they aren't human any more. And you can't kill a Refresh 0 human without violating the Laws, so saying that Refresh is the measure seems...off. At least to me.
void:
By 'humanity' I didn't mean decency. I meant independence, ability to chart their own path. For that, refresh is a viable mechanical measure, since that's what it's meant to represent.
Remember, in the dresden files, 'free will' is considered a defining trait of the mortal. Someone might still hang onto a small sliver of it even after becoming a full White Court Vampire. We've got an example of someone managing that in our source material.
Deadmanwalking:
True...but we don't know how relevant that is to The Laws of Magic. Which supposedly apply only to humans. The question isn't "Does he have free will?", he clearly does, but "Is he human any more?" and I'd say the answer to that is no. The White Court have become something more and less than human, and it has made them outside the scope of the Laws to some extent.
Otherwise you're opening the door to trapping your players into getting a Lawbreaker stunt for something they've done a dozen times, just because the vampire they just roasted happened to be a monster with free will. That feels wrong for both the setting and the game system. Would you give someone Lawbreaker for killing Lara Raith with magic? She clearly has a high enough Refresh to maintain free will, but that makes her no less a monster.
Now, thinking about it, there is a circumstance that would serve to define the line, at least for me: "Does your character think of him as human?"
This goes back to the whole intent thing. If you see a White Court Vampire and think "Monster, incubus, devil." then you gain no Lawbreaker stunts because you're right, but if you look at them and think "My brother." perhaps you would indeed gain Lawbreaker, just as you would if you murdered a Ghoul with magic while thinking they were human, because, in your mind, they are.
Moriden:
--- Quote ---This goes back to the whole intent thing. If you see a White Court Vampire and think "Monster, incubus, devil." then you gain no Lawbreaker stunts because you're right, but if you look at them and think "My brother." perhaps you would indeed gain Lawbreaker, just as you would if you murdered a Ghoul with magic while thinking they were human, because, in your mind, they are.
--- End quote ---
This is a bad line to cross for me. I have no problem playing a character that views anyone he doesnt personally know and trust as ... lets just use the word "monstrous" to fit it better into the example. so with that interpretation he would only get lawbreaker stunts if he used powers on his "pack"
void:
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on April 23, 2010, 01:26:34 PM ---Now, thinking about it, there is a circumstance that would serve to define the line, at least for me: "Does your character think of him as human?"
This goes back to the whole intent thing. If you see a White Court Vampire and think "Monster, incubus, devil." then you gain no Lawbreaker stunts because you're right, but if you look at them and think "My brother." perhaps you would indeed gain Lawbreaker, just as you would if you murdered a Ghoul with magic while thinking they were human, because, in your mind, they are.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: void on April 23, 2010, 12:49:24 PM ---For full White Court vampires, I'd say that depends on how hard they're trying to maintain their humanity, and to a lesser extent whether the spellcaster considers them to have succeeded at all.
--- End quote ---
I already went there. :D
--- Quote from: Moriden on April 23, 2010, 01:46:43 PM ---
This is a bad line to cross for me. I have no problem playing a character that views anyone he doesnt personally know and trust as ... lets just use the word "monstrous" to fit it better into the example. so with that interpretation he would only get lawbreaker stunts if he used powers on his "pack"
--- End quote ---
That only works if the people he's killing aren't truly mortal.
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