Author Topic: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.  (Read 5224 times)

Offline morriswalters

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Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
« on: August 26, 2022, 12:17:56 PM »
I have found the last piece of the puzzle for my personal head canon for Proven Guilty.  This shouldn't be confused with the truth, whatever that is. I still have no idea of who fixed LC.

There appear to be two murder plots running concurrently in the text. There is the obvious one.  The Merlin being manipulated into trying to kill Harry once again.  This is probably the WC traitor (Peabody) stirring the pot. Magic ink and all that.

Then there is the  second plot. The one by the Denarian's, possibly/probably  in concert with the Black Council. This one is trying to either get Harry to pick up the coin or to kill him if he uses LC, by having it blow up in his face.

This second plot is inferred rather than explicit. This is tenuous but the reasoning is thus. Lash shows up two times in the book, unless I'm forgetting one. She appears just before the crash and she appears just before first use. She is the only one who could have blocked Harry or Bob from seeing the flaw in LC. If Nicodemus is to be believed she could have controlled Harry and told Bob to not see it.  Harry never would have known.  Her active intervention let Uriel put his thumb on the scale.

Why didn't Rashid just tell Harry what Molly had done.  They had to empty the basement so someone could get in and fix Little Chicago.  In addition Mab had to show Harry the attack on Arctis Tor so Harry could answer the first question that Eb asked. Why didn't Mab declare war on the Red's?  Thus answering the question, why did Mab have Molly brought to  Arctis Tor?

For my personal fan service and head canon this is good enough.  It ties up most of the loose ends.

Offline Mira

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Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2022, 03:42:23 PM »
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Why didn't Rashid just tell Harry what Molly had done.  They had to empty the basement so someone could get in and fix Little Chicago.  In addition Mab had to show Harry the attack on Arctis Tor so Harry could answer the first question that Eb asked. Why didn't Mab declare war on the Red's?  Thus answering the question, why did Mab have Molly brought to  Arctis Tor?

I have to give this some thought, however to your question about Rashid and Molly.  I think the reason Rashid didn't point to her is she wasn't an apprentice yet, I doubt he knew her or who she was. In my opinion he was being general when he told Harry that and hadn't narrowed it down himself.  It is kind of like the phrase, "there is something rotten in the state of Denmark," it points out that something is wrong, but there are no details.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2022, 05:25:47 PM »
If he didn't know, why treat the attacks as secrets and tell Harry that no one knew? Why did Uriel move Micheal? And why did Mab attack Pell?

Offline Mira

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Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2022, 08:00:18 PM »
If he didn't know, why treat the attacks as secrets and tell Harry that no one knew? Why did Uriel move Micheal? And why did Mab attack Pell?

 It was all about saving Harry, Rashid was buying time until Micheal got to the meeting.  Michael says as much if I remember correctly his arrival wasn't about saving Molly, but Harry.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2022, 08:45:37 PM »
It was all about saving Harry, Rashid was buying time until Micheal got to the meeting.  Michael says as much if I remember correctly his arrival wasn't about saving Molly, but Harry.
What he actually said was this.
Quote
“Only that it is entirely possible, Harry Dresden, that this entire affair, beginning to end, is meant to protect you. That when I went to the aid of Luccio and her trainees, I did so not to free Molly, but to prevent you from coming to blows with the Council. That her position as your new apprentice had less to do with protecting her than it did protecting you?”
If you follow the reasoning that Butcher has used to keep Uriel  from wiping the floor then you  should ask why he could involve himself. The only reason that makes sense is that somebody crossed the line.

Offline Mira

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Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2022, 10:38:24 PM »
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If you follow the reasoning that Butcher has used to keep Uriel  from wiping the floor then you  should ask why he could involve himself. The only reason that makes sense is that somebody crossed the line.

 You are great at looking up those quotes! ;)  I usually try to do that too, but couldn't today.  Why should Uriel involve himself?  Consider, Hell Fire was used at Arctus Tor, maybe not much of an excuse but enough for Uriel to manipulate things for Team Harry.  Why was Harry's mission in Skin Game considered so important that Uriel would risk his Grace to insure that it was successful?  This is going to end in the ultimate battle between Good and Evil, and for good or ill, in spite of his flaws, Harry has a key role to play in it as star born.. Uriel and his Boss are going to do what they can to see that he is there at the end to play that role.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2022, 01:07:20 AM »
I have way too much time on my hands.

Offline Mira

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Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2022, 02:55:22 AM »
I have way too much time on my hands.

So do I usually... ::)

Offline Ed0517

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Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2022, 03:37:40 AM »
   Why was Harry's mission in Skin Game considered so important that Uriel would risk his Grace to insure that it was successful? 

Harry had to get in the vault to get an invitation he could not refuse from Hades, and get the superweapons to stop Ethnui. Without them, she crushes Chicago. And now Harry has some of Hades' arsenal. Uriel wanted Harry to have them. 

Or Uriel was ordered to get them to Harry. Also possible it was decided Ethnui might be or a power level Not Allowed to walk about, so get big weapons out, or an archangel needs to take a direct hand, and that is not wanted.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2022, 05:27:54 PM »
If Lash sabotaged Little Chicago / hid Harry's own mistake from him with the intent to blow it up in his face, why was she busting her ass to stop him from using it? Why would she want to kill the host she still had every expectation of turning?

I don't think Nic and co were monitoring her all that closely, or necessarily even had the capacity to give Lash orders remotely. The Shadow is sort of a fire-and-forget weapon. Harry picked it up; he'll convert eventually - that was considered a 100% certainty until Harry showed he'd resisted in SmF. Nic didn't see a need to micromanage. He'd got some intel of Harry using Hellfire, and figured it was just a waiting game from then on.

Based on Lash' willingness to go to extremes to stop Harry using the table, I wonder if she'd even noticed the flaw but was for some reason forbidden from telling him it was there. She seemed awfully sure he was about to kill himself trying.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2022, 06:24:07 PM »
If Lash sabotaged Little Chicago / hid Harry's own mistake from him with the intent to blow it up in his face, why was she busting her ass to stop him from using it? Why would she want to kill the host she still had every expectation of turning?

I don't think Nic and co were monitoring her all that closely, or necessarily even had the capacity to give Lash orders remotely. The Shadow is sort of a fire-and-forget weapon. Harry picked it up; he'll convert eventually - that was considered a 100% certainty until Harry showed he'd resisted in SmF. Nic didn't see a need to micromanage. He'd got some intel of Harry using Hellfire, and figured it was just a waiting game from then on.

Based on Lash' willingness to go to extremes to stop Harry using the table, I wonder if she'd even noticed the flaw but was for some reason forbidden from telling him it was there. She seemed awfully sure he was about to kill himself trying.
The problem with LC being broken has always been the question of  why Butcher chose to write it as broken and then only do the reveal in the denouement?

Lash's reaction only makes sense if she believed LC was broken.  And if it were sabotaged she was the only one able to do so in plain sight.

By the time they are actually in the lab for first use the plot has essentially failed.  Michael is in position.  Harry now knows what is what and who is who. LC has been fixed and the only task still on the table is to get Molly and  be shown what has happened at Arctis Tor.

Butcher having Harry pick up the coin was the perfect setup for this.  In terms of the plot this  may have always been the point.

Offline g33k

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Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2022, 12:53:19 AM »
There appear to be two murder plots running concurrently in the text. There is the obvious one.  The Merlin being manipulated into trying to kill Harry once again.  This is probably the WC traitor (Peabody) stirring the pot. Magic ink and all that ...

I think "stirring the pot" (in ways that advance the BC agenda(s)... or just cause disruption/opportunity the BC is poised to exploit) is sufficient explanation.  Explicitly making it a "Kill Harry" agenda I think is a mistake -- I think the BC is planning to use Harry (and thus, wants him alive).  So long as Margaret LeFay's starborn child is alive, whatever plan(s) they originally formulated (before she went rogue, and ran away from her Whamp handler) are alive, too!  The Merlin, of course, would like to see Harry dead; pretty much for exactly the same reasons the BC wants him alive:  a dangerously-unpredictable "wild card" who's prone to black magic.

I don't think we know those BC plans with any surety, but I suspect they revolve around the idea that a Starborn would likely be the best tool for controlling a summoned Outsider; without a Starborn, that tool is likely to turn in your hand and cut you!

Then there is the second plot. The one by the Denarian's, possibly/probably  in concert with the Black Council. This one is trying to either get Harry to pick up the coin or to kill him if he uses LC, by having it blow up in his face.
Definitely a Denarian plot; but I don't think it's to get Harry killed (neither by LC or by any other means).

I suspect the BC and the Denarians are maneuvering around, trying to use one another; I doubt they often get very much done in any of these schemes, because both sides are to untrusting to commit (and each, of course, is fully-correct in their respective lack of trust).


If Lash sabotaged Little Chicago / hid Harry's own mistake from him with the intent to blow it up in his face, why was she busting her ass to stop him from using it? Why would she want to kill the host she still had every expectation of turning?
...
Based on Lash' willingness to go to extremes to stop Harry using the table, I wonder if she'd even noticed the flaw...

Exactly!.  I go beyond "wondering" if she knew of the flaw -- I fully-expect that she did.  I expect she knew much more than Bob about such enchantments, and spotted the flaw long-since.

... They had to empty the basement so someone could get in and fix Little Chicago ...
My main theory is that Mab herself fixes LC, entering via Lea's garden, which is a "back door" into Harry's lab for Lea & Mab, and very few others.  At the moment, Lea is being a Sidhecicle, so Mab herself is acting under the promises made by Harry's Faerie Godmother (and fulfilling promises is incredibly important to Mab).

Bob, in turn, didn't tell Harry either because (a) Mab had just demonstrated she could easily walk in through every defense, and she terrified him into silence; or (b) Bob's entire "terrified of Winter" schtick is a front, and he's actually been a deep-cover Winter agent ... ever since his creation!

(my seconary theory is that Future!Harry fixed it, since Future!Harry  (a) knew about the flaw, (b) knew about Lea's backdoor, (c) as the owner of the skull, could give Bob the relevant orders. )

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2022, 01:39:09 AM »
Golly I thought everybody had left and forgot to tell me.

If Lash knew LC was broken then she knew it was fixed. And her temper tantrum was a last ditch effort to get Harry to pick up the coin.

It really doesn't matter who fixed LC. Rashid could have done the deed but Mab also works. Harry isn't a good candidate by the rules laid out in Cold Days which involve the grandfather paradox.

In my personal canon you have to answer the question, why was LC broken.

Offline Mira

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Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2022, 04:13:59 AM »
Quote
If Lash knew LC was broken then she knew it was fixed. And her temper tantrum was a last ditch effort to get Harry to pick up the coin.ote]

Except that wasn't her last ditch effort, her last ditch effort to get Harry to pick up the coin was in White Night to save him, but instead she sacrificed herself to save him.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2022, 10:16:03 AM by Mira »

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2022, 05:23:06 PM »
My main theory is that Mab herself fixes LC, entering via Lea's garden, which is a "back door" into Harry's lab for Lea & Mab, and very few others.  At the moment, Lea is being a Sidhecicle, so Mab herself is acting under the promises made by Harry's Faerie Godmother (and fulfilling promises is incredibly important to Mab).
...
Bob, in turn, didn't tell Harry either because (a) Mab had just demonstrated she could easily walk in through every defense, and she terrified him into silence; or (b) Bob's entire "terrified of Winter" schtick is a front, and he's actually been a deep-cover Winter agent ... ever since his creation!

I don't think Lea's bargain obligated her to save Harry from his own error blowing up in his face. Mab is a good candidate for having done the fix, but I suspect her reasoning was to preserve an asset she had future use for, rather than to cover any obligation of Lea's.

She couldn't very well try to sell Harry a warning about the flaw without tipping that she was around protecting him on Lea's behalf, and enough of a hint what she was trying to sell would have just got him to have Bob run a full diagnostic anyway. So she had to do a freebie to preserve her investment.