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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: morriswalters on August 26, 2022, 12:17:56 PM

Title: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: morriswalters on August 26, 2022, 12:17:56 PM
I have found the last piece of the puzzle for my personal head canon for Proven Guilty.  This shouldn't be confused with the truth, whatever that is. I still have no idea of who fixed LC.

There appear to be two murder plots running concurrently in the text. There is the obvious one.  The Merlin being manipulated into trying to kill Harry once again.  This is probably the WC traitor (Peabody) stirring the pot. Magic ink and all that.

Then there is the  second plot. The one by the Denarian's, possibly/probably  in concert with the Black Council. This one is trying to either get Harry to pick up the coin or to kill him if he uses LC, by having it blow up in his face.

This second plot is inferred rather than explicit. This is tenuous but the reasoning is thus. Lash shows up two times in the book, unless I'm forgetting one. She appears just before the crash and she appears just before first use. She is the only one who could have blocked Harry or Bob from seeing the flaw in LC. If Nicodemus is to be believed she could have controlled Harry and told Bob to not see it.  Harry never would have known.  Her active intervention let Uriel put his thumb on the scale.

Why didn't Rashid just tell Harry what Molly had done.  They had to empty the basement so someone could get in and fix Little Chicago.  In addition Mab had to show Harry the attack on Arctis Tor so Harry could answer the first question that Eb asked. Why didn't Mab declare war on the Red's?  Thus answering the question, why did Mab have Molly brought to  Arctis Tor?

For my personal fan service and head canon this is good enough.  It ties up most of the loose ends.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on August 26, 2022, 03:42:23 PM
Quote
Why didn't Rashid just tell Harry what Molly had done.  They had to empty the basement so someone could get in and fix Little Chicago.  In addition Mab had to show Harry the attack on Arctis Tor so Harry could answer the first question that Eb asked. Why didn't Mab declare war on the Red's?  Thus answering the question, why did Mab have Molly brought to  Arctis Tor?

I have to give this some thought, however to your question about Rashid and Molly.  I think the reason Rashid didn't point to her is she wasn't an apprentice yet, I doubt he knew her or who she was. In my opinion he was being general when he told Harry that and hadn't narrowed it down himself.  It is kind of like the phrase, "there is something rotten in the state of Denmark," it points out that something is wrong, but there are no details.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: morriswalters on August 26, 2022, 05:25:47 PM
If he didn't know, why treat the attacks as secrets and tell Harry that no one knew? Why did Uriel move Micheal? And why did Mab attack Pell?
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on August 26, 2022, 08:00:18 PM
If he didn't know, why treat the attacks as secrets and tell Harry that no one knew? Why did Uriel move Micheal? And why did Mab attack Pell?

 It was all about saving Harry, Rashid was buying time until Micheal got to the meeting.  Michael says as much if I remember correctly his arrival wasn't about saving Molly, but Harry.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: morriswalters on August 26, 2022, 08:45:37 PM
It was all about saving Harry, Rashid was buying time until Micheal got to the meeting.  Michael says as much if I remember correctly his arrival wasn't about saving Molly, but Harry.
What he actually said was this.
Quote
“Only that it is entirely possible, Harry Dresden, that this entire affair, beginning to end, is meant to protect you. That when I went to the aid of Luccio and her trainees, I did so not to free Molly, but to prevent you from coming to blows with the Council. That her position as your new apprentice had less to do with protecting her than it did protecting you?”
If you follow the reasoning that Butcher has used to keep Uriel  from wiping the floor then you  should ask why he could involve himself. The only reason that makes sense is that somebody crossed the line.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on August 26, 2022, 10:38:24 PM
Quote
If you follow the reasoning that Butcher has used to keep Uriel  from wiping the floor then you  should ask why he could involve himself. The only reason that makes sense is that somebody crossed the line.

 You are great at looking up those quotes! ;)  I usually try to do that too, but couldn't today.  Why should Uriel involve himself?  Consider, Hell Fire was used at Arctus Tor, maybe not much of an excuse but enough for Uriel to manipulate things for Team Harry.  Why was Harry's mission in Skin Game considered so important that Uriel would risk his Grace to insure that it was successful?  This is going to end in the ultimate battle between Good and Evil, and for good or ill, in spite of his flaws, Harry has a key role to play in it as star born.. Uriel and his Boss are going to do what they can to see that he is there at the end to play that role.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: morriswalters on August 27, 2022, 01:07:20 AM
I have way too much time on my hands.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on August 27, 2022, 02:55:22 AM
I have way too much time on my hands.

So do I usually... ::)
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Ed0517 on August 27, 2022, 03:37:40 AM
   Why was Harry's mission in Skin Game considered so important that Uriel would risk his Grace to insure that it was successful? 

Harry had to get in the vault to get an invitation he could not refuse from Hades, and get the superweapons to stop Ethnui. Without them, she crushes Chicago. And now Harry has some of Hades' arsenal. Uriel wanted Harry to have them. 

Or Uriel was ordered to get them to Harry. Also possible it was decided Ethnui might be or a power level Not Allowed to walk about, so get big weapons out, or an archangel needs to take a direct hand, and that is not wanted.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Snark Knight on August 27, 2022, 05:27:54 PM
If Lash sabotaged Little Chicago / hid Harry's own mistake from him with the intent to blow it up in his face, why was she busting her ass to stop him from using it? Why would she want to kill the host she still had every expectation of turning?

I don't think Nic and co were monitoring her all that closely, or necessarily even had the capacity to give Lash orders remotely. The Shadow is sort of a fire-and-forget weapon. Harry picked it up; he'll convert eventually - that was considered a 100% certainty until Harry showed he'd resisted in SmF. Nic didn't see a need to micromanage. He'd got some intel of Harry using Hellfire, and figured it was just a waiting game from then on.

Based on Lash' willingness to go to extremes to stop Harry using the table, I wonder if she'd even noticed the flaw but was for some reason forbidden from telling him it was there. She seemed awfully sure he was about to kill himself trying.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: morriswalters on August 27, 2022, 06:24:07 PM
If Lash sabotaged Little Chicago / hid Harry's own mistake from him with the intent to blow it up in his face, why was she busting her ass to stop him from using it? Why would she want to kill the host she still had every expectation of turning?

I don't think Nic and co were monitoring her all that closely, or necessarily even had the capacity to give Lash orders remotely. The Shadow is sort of a fire-and-forget weapon. Harry picked it up; he'll convert eventually - that was considered a 100% certainty until Harry showed he'd resisted in SmF. Nic didn't see a need to micromanage. He'd got some intel of Harry using Hellfire, and figured it was just a waiting game from then on.

Based on Lash' willingness to go to extremes to stop Harry using the table, I wonder if she'd even noticed the flaw but was for some reason forbidden from telling him it was there. She seemed awfully sure he was about to kill himself trying.
The problem with LC being broken has always been the question of  why Butcher chose to write it as broken and then only do the reveal in the denouement?

Lash's reaction only makes sense if she believed LC was broken.  And if it were sabotaged she was the only one able to do so in plain sight.

By the time they are actually in the lab for first use the plot has essentially failed.  Michael is in position.  Harry now knows what is what and who is who. LC has been fixed and the only task still on the table is to get Molly and  be shown what has happened at Arctis Tor.

Butcher having Harry pick up the coin was the perfect setup for this.  In terms of the plot this  may have always been the point.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: g33k on August 30, 2022, 12:53:19 AM
There appear to be two murder plots running concurrently in the text. There is the obvious one.  The Merlin being manipulated into trying to kill Harry once again.  This is probably the WC traitor (Peabody) stirring the pot. Magic ink and all that ...

I think "stirring the pot" (in ways that advance the BC agenda(s)... or just cause disruption/opportunity the BC is poised to exploit) is sufficient explanation.  Explicitly making it a "Kill Harry" agenda I think is a mistake -- I think the BC is planning to use Harry (and thus, wants him alive).  So long as Margaret LeFay's starborn child is alive, whatever plan(s) they originally formulated (before she went rogue, and ran away from her Whamp handler) are alive, too!  The Merlin, of course, would like to see Harry dead; pretty much for exactly the same reasons the BC wants him alive:  a dangerously-unpredictable "wild card" who's prone to black magic.

I don't think we know those BC plans with any surety, but I suspect they revolve around the idea that a Starborn would likely be the best tool for controlling a summoned Outsider; without a Starborn, that tool is likely to turn in your hand and cut you!

Then there is the second plot. The one by the Denarian's, possibly/probably  in concert with the Black Council. This one is trying to either get Harry to pick up the coin or to kill him if he uses LC, by having it blow up in his face.
Definitely a Denarian plot; but I don't think it's to get Harry killed (neither by LC or by any other means).

I suspect the BC and the Denarians are maneuvering around, trying to use one another; I doubt they often get very much done in any of these schemes, because both sides are to untrusting to commit (and each, of course, is fully-correct in their respective lack of trust).


If Lash sabotaged Little Chicago / hid Harry's own mistake from him with the intent to blow it up in his face, why was she busting her ass to stop him from using it? Why would she want to kill the host she still had every expectation of turning?
...
Based on Lash' willingness to go to extremes to stop Harry using the table, I wonder if she'd even noticed the flaw...

Exactly!.  I go beyond "wondering" if she knew of the flaw -- I fully-expect that she did.  I expect she knew much more than Bob about such enchantments, and spotted the flaw long-since.

... They had to empty the basement so someone could get in and fix Little Chicago ...
My main theory is that Mab herself fixes LC, entering via Lea's garden, which is a "back door" into Harry's lab for Lea & Mab, and very few others.  At the moment, Lea is being a Sidhecicle, so Mab herself is acting under the promises made by Harry's Faerie Godmother (and fulfilling promises is incredibly important to Mab).

Bob, in turn, didn't tell Harry either because (a) Mab had just demonstrated she could easily walk in through every defense, and she terrified him into silence; or (b) Bob's entire "terrified of Winter" schtick is a front, and he's actually been a deep-cover Winter agent ... ever since his creation!

(my seconary theory is that Future!Harry fixed it, since Future!Harry  (a) knew about the flaw, (b) knew about Lea's backdoor, (c) as the owner of the skull, could give Bob the relevant orders. )
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: morriswalters on August 30, 2022, 01:39:09 AM
Golly I thought everybody had left and forgot to tell me.

If Lash knew LC was broken then she knew it was fixed. And her temper tantrum was a last ditch effort to get Harry to pick up the coin.

It really doesn't matter who fixed LC. Rashid could have done the deed but Mab also works. Harry isn't a good candidate by the rules laid out in Cold Days which involve the grandfather paradox.

In my personal canon you have to answer the question, why was LC broken.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on August 30, 2022, 04:13:59 AM
Quote
If Lash knew LC was broken then she knew it was fixed. And her temper tantrum was a last ditch effort to get Harry to pick up the coin.ote]

Except that wasn't her last ditch effort, her last ditch effort to get Harry to pick up the coin was in White Night to save him, but instead she sacrificed herself to save him.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Snark Knight on August 30, 2022, 05:23:06 PM
My main theory is that Mab herself fixes LC, entering via Lea's garden, which is a "back door" into Harry's lab for Lea & Mab, and very few others.  At the moment, Lea is being a Sidhecicle, so Mab herself is acting under the promises made by Harry's Faerie Godmother (and fulfilling promises is incredibly important to Mab).
...
Bob, in turn, didn't tell Harry either because (a) Mab had just demonstrated she could easily walk in through every defense, and she terrified him into silence; or (b) Bob's entire "terrified of Winter" schtick is a front, and he's actually been a deep-cover Winter agent ... ever since his creation!

I don't think Lea's bargain obligated her to save Harry from his own error blowing up in his face. Mab is a good candidate for having done the fix, but I suspect her reasoning was to preserve an asset she had future use for, rather than to cover any obligation of Lea's.

She couldn't very well try to sell Harry a warning about the flaw without tipping that she was around protecting him on Lea's behalf, and enough of a hint what she was trying to sell would have just got him to have Bob run a full diagnostic anyway. So she had to do a freebie to preserve her investment.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on August 30, 2022, 06:04:17 PM
Quote
I don't think Lea's bargain obligated her to save Harry from his own error blowing up in his face. Mab is a good candidate for having done the fix, but I suspect her reasoning was to preserve an asset she had future use for, rather than to cover any obligation of Lea's.

Have we even established that it was an error on Harry's part?  It's been a while, but I don't seem to remember Harry saying it was an error on his part that broke Little Chicago.  Little Chicago was about details down to the last tree branch for it to work, which at the same time may have been it's greatest flaw.  A city is a dynamic place buildings are torn down,built, and altered on a daily basis.  Streets get torn up or get pot holes, trees fall down and are planted.  If not duplicated in the modal of Little Chicago, then the magic that goes with it has also got to be altered..  So what if no one "broke" Little Chicago?  Then even Toot, who with his buddies covers a lot of area, may have spotted something new in the landscape and with help was able to fix the "error."
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: morriswalters on August 30, 2022, 06:21:12 PM
The problem is presented by in the denouement.  How did anyone know of the existence of LC and who knew it well enough to know it was broken and so how to fix it? Only one character would have known by default.  Lasciel's  Shadow. Mab would have known how to get in but how could she know that it was there and broken?

Bob says something strange.
Quote
“It didn’t fix itself,” Bob said. “When I looked at it a few nights ago, the flawed section was in plain sight, even if I didn’t recognize it at the time. When I looked again tonight, it was different. Someone changed it.”
If he recognized it was wrong after the fact why didn't he recognize it before?

Why was Michael moved out of town?  And by that I mean, what was Uriel reacting to?  Molly made use of her free will so Uriel couldn't balance that.  Who interfered in such a way so that Uriel could act? If the error in LC were natural rather than a contrivance of an enemy then why could Uriel act?  And what enemy could have provoked him to balance the scales?
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: vincentric on August 30, 2022, 09:25:55 PM
Do we know if Harry's housekeeping brownies were Summer or Winter Fae?  If they were Winter, then I'd say Mab fixed LC as part of Lea's godmothering. Since Lea watched Harry's place foe enemies, it would have been simple for her to enter a a benign fae while Harry and Bob were out just like the cleaners do. Mab did the same while covering for Lea and spotted and fixed the flaw .
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on August 31, 2022, 12:02:27 AM
Quote
If he recognized it was wrong after the fact why didn't he recognize it before?

 Or as is his way, Harry is beating himself up for something that might not have been his fault. When he looked at it before it was okay, he didn't recognize it because at that point it was okay.  If someone was screwing with him, and Mab could be that someone, or even Uriel, since the whole point of this apparently was ultimately to save Harry from his clash with the Merlin later.  Uriel would have the power to have Little Chicago look normal when Harry looked at it, then cause the flaw that made it fail, then fix it again.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Snark Knight on August 31, 2022, 02:47:05 AM
Do we know if Harry's housekeeping brownies were Summer or Winter Fae?  If they were Winter, then I'd say Mab fixed LC as part of Lea's godmothering. Since Lea watched Harry's place foe enemies, it would have been simple for her to enter a a benign fae while Harry and Bob were out just like the cleaners do. Mab did the same while covering for Lea and spotted and fixed the flaw .

The brownies were Summer - a boon from Lily for saving her at the end of Summer Knight.

Lea and Mab are equally free to walk right into his home as benevolent visitors too, though.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on August 31, 2022, 05:08:20 AM
The brownies were Summer - a boon from Lily for saving her at the end of Summer Knight.

Lea and Mab are equally free to walk right into his home as benevolent visitors too, though.

  When you think about it, Mab and Lea cannot freely cross Harry's threshold, or at least I do
not remember them doing so.  The Brownies have permission as his cleaning service, but it is unlikely that Harry would have allowed them into his lab. Since he has never had an on page conversation with them we do not know their level of understanding as we do Toot.  So the one guy that can go anywhere he wants I think is Uriel.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Ed0517 on August 31, 2022, 06:58:07 AM
  When you think about it, Mab and Lea cannot freely cross Harry's threshold, or at least I do
not remember them doing so.  The Brownies have permission as his cleaning service, but it is unlikely that Harry would have allowed them into his lab. Since he has never had an on page conversation with them we do not know their level of understanding as we do Toot.  So the one guy that can go anywhere he wants I think is Uriel.

Ah, but does going via a Way count as a threshold? Did Harry, or more likely it would have to be Michael, invite Mab that Christmas Eve? That's a MUCH stronger threshold, or did she just have to leave most of her power outside. Harry's crossed a threshold for the Ordo Lebes (sp) uninvited to show he had no eveil intentions - he basically disarmed himself.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Ed0517 on August 31, 2022, 07:13:40 AM


Bob says something strange.

Quote
It didn’t fix itself,” Bob said. “When I looked at it a few nights ago, the flawed section was in plain sight, even if I didn’t recognize it at the time. When I looked again tonight, it was different. Someone changed it.”
If he recognized it was wrong after the fact why didn't he recognize it before?

Maybe he noticed the change as DIFFERENT, instead of WRONG, at first. It was only until he did some research he found the newer configuration was correct, and the older one wrong.

As Mira pointed out - cities change. As an example - suppose I made Little New York.  I made it in 1960. It could have been right at the time. 1980 rolls around - the Trade Towers have been built - and Greenwich Street was CUT OFF at the southern edge of the Trade Center complex, to resume again NORTH of the complex. In the prior model, it was a continuous run. Mab fixes it. My Bob notices a CHANGE and asks me for some data. I give him a Hagstrom Atlas (no electronics!) with a city street map - and he sees the new construction changed the map grid. My 1960 model was wrong in 1980.

(and just to screw with the maps again, they changed the map grid during reconstruction of the area, so 1960 .NE. 1980 .NE. 2022  )
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Snark Knight on August 31, 2022, 01:04:36 PM
When you think about it, Mab and Lea cannot freely cross Harry's threshold, or at least I do not remember them doing so.

They can go anywhere they want so long as their intentions are benevolent to the homeowner. The scene with Cat Sith appearing in Thomas' apartment without his permission in CD explains those rules.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: morriswalters on August 31, 2022, 02:13:33 PM
All cities change on a daily basis, so no map can or does try to keep up.  Entropy happens.  LC would be useless if it was that important.  Butcher made a narrative decision to have the device be broken. It's when he makes the reveal that is most important IMHO.  The story is over and he's recapping and explaining as part of the denouement. Why tell us then, when it no longer makes any difference?

And can someone explain to me Lasciels's purpose in the plot?  She doesn't do anything useful, at least on the surface. Does Butcher think we forgot about her?

She jump scares Harry in the car just before he is hit.
She throws a hissy fit when he uses LC.
She talks to him in the church.

Use the threshold the way Butcher does.  He uses it to nerf magic. If he wants a character in then the threshold lets them in. If he wants them out then they are out. And if the story demands it there is a workaround.

Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on August 31, 2022, 02:56:09 PM
All cities change on a daily basis, so no map can or does try to keep up.  Entropy happens.  LC would be useless if it was that important.  Butcher made a narrative decision to have the device be broken. It's when he makes the reveal that is most important IMHO.  The story is over and he's recapping and explaining as part of the denouement. Why tell us then, when it no longer makes any difference?

And can someone explain to me Lasciels's purpose in the plot?  She doesn't do anything useful, at least on the surface. Does Butcher think we forgot about her?

She jump scares Harry in the car just before he is hit.
She throws a hissy fit when he uses LC.
She talks to him in the church.

Use the threshold the way Butcher does.  He uses it to nerf magic. If he wants a character in then the threshold lets them in. If he wants them out then they are out. And if the story demands it there is a workaround.

She is there, she is a source of information, more so than Bob, more importantly, and it is easy to miss, she is becoming Lash.  There is one line, one line only but could be the most significant line in the whole book in my opinion, has huge implications for the plot down the road in future books. Harry is in the chapel of St Mary's on page 288
Quote
Lasciel's voice came to me, very quietly, and sounded odd.  Sad. It is beautiful here.
That,in my opinion was a turning point or the signal of one, Lasciel is changing.  Lasciel would never have made those observations, she was all about manipulating Harry to see things her way even as she was helping him. This was regret, an awakening of long lost memories of what it was like before her Fall.  Lash was about to be born, not too long after that she begins to help Harry play music, even compose, something else she has never done since her fall, supposedly hadn't missed but forgotten how much pleasure she got from it.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Snark Knight on August 31, 2022, 05:29:03 PM
She is there, she is a source of information, more so than Bob, more importantly, and it is easy to miss, she is becoming Lash.

She also noticed hints that Molly was crushing on Harry at the time, which ends up being relevant.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: morriswalters on August 31, 2022, 06:16:41 PM
She is there, she is a source of information, more so than Bob, more importantly, and it is easy to miss, she is becoming Lash.
I wish you would point me towards any information Lash gave Harry in Proven Guilty.  It eludes me. In point of fact.
Quote
There was nothing I could do to prevent Lasciel from seeing and hearing everything I did, or from rummaging randomly in my memories, but I had learned that I could at least veil my active thoughts from her. I did so constantly, in order to prevent her from learning too much, too quickly.
Sounds kinda one way to me. But for me this answers the question, who could have known. I won't quote the second instance but it answers the question, how could LC been damaged.  Bob couldn't see it because he had been told not to.  Lash took Harry's body for a little walk. When Bob tells Harry about it here is what the conversation looks like.
Quote
I looked again tonight, it was different. Someone changed it.”

“In my lab? Under my house? Which is behind my wards? That’s impossible.”

“No it isn’t,” Bob said. “Just really, really, really, really, really, really difficult. And unlikely. He would have had to know that you had a lab down here. And he would have had to know how to get around your wards.”
This is interesting.  If it were sabotaged, the person doing so would have to have as much information as the person who fixed it.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on August 31, 2022, 07:37:18 PM
Quote
I wish you would point me towards any information Lash gave Harry in Proven Guilty.  It eludes me. In point of fact.

Perhaps because it isn't about any information  Lasciel gave or didn't give Harry, it is the first concrete evidence that Lasciel is changing into Lash.  It is easy to miss as I said, but it is there.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: morriswalters on August 31, 2022, 08:05:49 PM
I missed one event.  Lash helped Harry escape from the Fool Moon Garage.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on August 31, 2022, 09:55:12 PM
I missed one event.  Lash helped Harry escape from the Fool Moon Garage.

  She let him understand what the ghouls were saying, she helped him translate and understand Kemmler's book. 
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: morriswalters on August 31, 2022, 10:29:15 PM
None of which happened in Proven Guilty.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on September 01, 2022, 04:05:28 AM
None of which happened in Proven Guilty.

I still think you are missing the point, it isn't what Lasciel does to help Harry in Proven Guilty, it is about what she is becoming, "Lash."  That is her part in the plot that has repercussions for the next few books.   
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: g33k on September 02, 2022, 09:32:28 PM
The problem is presented by in the denouement.  How did anyone know of the existence of LC and who knew it well enough to know it was broken and so how to fix it? Only one character would have known by default.  Lasciel's  Shadow. Mab would have known how to get in but how could she know that it was there and broken?

Add Lea and Mab to the shortlist.

Because the Way from the lab leads directly to Lea's Murder Garden, Lea (and Lea-proxy Mab, during Lea's "sidhecicle incident" (and very-likely Mab all the time, invoking the whole Mab's Handmaiden vassalage)) can open a Way into the lab any time Harry isn't there, and peek in.  If Bob is there, they either need to silence him, or hide; but either/both seem possible...

But between Bob getting sent out riding Mister, getting "free passes" from Harry, and Harry taking Bob in a backpack, there's PLENTY of occasions for Lea and/or Mab to gain complete access to Harry's lab.  This exact thing -- Bob & Harry both being out of the lab -- happens in Proven Guilty; between Harry's attempt to use it, and Bob discovering the repair, & realizing the (prior) flawed state.

Mab could cross Harry's Threshold, leave 99% of her power behind, and still have more power (and of course skill!) than Harry, for the purposes of fixing LC.

... Bob says something strange.If he recognized it was wrong after the fact why didn't he recognize it before? ...

The error was subtle enough that he didn't realize it was an error:  Bob isn't an infallible expert.  Bob had said, "none of the evil geniuses" he had worked with could have created LC; so it was sophisticated stuff, both subtle and powerful.  Bob simply overlooked the flaw, it was a "plausible" -- but erroneous -- design.

What WAS obvious to Bob was the CHANGE.  Bob noticed that immediately.  And he compared the new to the old... and THEN saw what was wrong with the old.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: morriswalters on September 02, 2022, 11:01:38 PM
I take it as a given for my personal canon that Mab never leaves Arctis Tor in the book.  Lea's on ice.  In the realm of characters it could have been Battle Ground added Vadderung. But for me the point is moot.  Mab works and if you end the series at Cold Days it gives a more or less complete picture.

A report from DragonCon from reddit quotes Butcher as saying he might pause the Cinder Spires series since his second wife took the cats in the divorce. Really, truly?
Quote from: reddit
Update on Cinder Spire. Went through divorce during pandemic. He misses the cats. He’s considering setting it aside for a while as working on it traumatizes him. Still has Fenris, but sounds like Kitty got the others. Still has Bru too. He sounded real sad in talking about losing the cats and working on the Spires. Fenris bosses around Bru.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on September 03, 2022, 04:27:19 AM
I take it as a given for my personal canon that Mab never leaves Arctis Tor in the book.  Lea's on ice.  In the realm of characters it could have been Battle Ground added Vadderung. But for me the point is moot.  Mab works and if you end the series at Cold Days it gives a more or less complete picture.

A report from DragonCon from reddit quotes Butcher as saying he might pause the Cinder Spires series since his second wife took the cats in the divorce. Really, truly?

Poor guy, I'd advise he get himself some new kittens.. Seriously, while they cannot take the place of his old friends, new ones will ease the pain.  I've found that it does help after the loss of a beloved dog. Though his remaining cat may have a lot to say in the matter.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: morriswalters on September 03, 2022, 08:31:51 PM
Poor guy, I'd advise he get himself some new kittens.. Seriously, while they cannot take the place of his old friends, new ones will ease the pain.  I've found that it does help after the loss of a beloved dog. Though his remaining cat may have a lot to say in the matter.
Life goes on.  It does not stop just  because you're traumatized by losing your cats. I had to go back to work after I buried my mother.  Coming apart at the seams wasn't a luxury I could avail myself of. However I  wish him luck and everything good going forward.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on September 04, 2022, 10:10:18 AM
Life goes on.  It does not stop just  because you're traumatized by losing your cats. I had to go back to work after I buried my mother.  Coming apart at the seams wasn't a luxury I could avail myself of. However I  wish him luck and everything good going forward.

Tell me about it, we had searches which I participated in just a week or two after losing my son, and again after losing my husband.  But then again, everyone responds to grief differently, his ex-wife taking his beloved animals could have been the last straw in an emotional time.. We shouldn't judge, and this isn't the place for it.   
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Ed0517 on September 05, 2022, 04:00:05 AM
Life goes on.  It does not stop just  because you're traumatized by losing your cats. I had to go back to work after I buried my mother.  Coming apart at the seams wasn't a luxury I could avail myself of. However I  wish him luck and everything good going forward.

So did I, but I couldn't AFFORD to not work. We don't know if Jim needs to work for financial reasons or he is at a stage he works for creative outlet or a sense of purpose, etc. Bill Watterson from Calvin and Hobbes walked away and never came back or came out with new stuff.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on September 05, 2022, 10:57:02 AM
So did I, but I couldn't AFFORD to not work. We don't know if Jim needs to work for financial reasons or he is at a stage he works for creative outlet or a sense of purpose, etc. Bill Watterson from Calvin and Hobbes walked away and never came back or came out with new stuff.

Creativity is an intangible, it cannot be turned on or off like a faucet.  Sometimes tragedy,etc, can turn it on, and sometimes it can turn it off never to flow again.  Artists everywhere have struggled with this since the time they started drawing animals on cave walls. 
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: morriswalters on September 05, 2022, 12:13:32 PM
I wish him the best of everything. And that's pretty much all I have left to say.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Ed0517 on September 07, 2022, 10:35:02 AM
Creativity is an intangible, it cannot be turned on or off like a faucet.  Sometimes tragedy,etc, can turn it on, and sometimes it can turn it off never to flow again.  Artists everywhere have struggled with this since the time they started drawing animals on cave walls.

Oh, that is true. I just mean those of us who returned to work did not have options Jim may have - though after two divorces, he may have obligations too.  I hope he comes back, but we do not know if he HAS to, like we had to work. We do not know his motivations
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on September 07, 2022, 11:48:23 AM
Oh, that is true. I just mean those of us who returned to work did not have options Jim may have - though after two divorces, he may have obligations too.  I hope he comes back, but we do not know if he HAS to, like we had to work. We do not know his motivations

All I am saying aside from that, I agree you or me might not have a choice, but then again it depends on the type of job we do.  Some things you cannot bully and get good results.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Ed0517 on September 08, 2022, 05:01:17 AM
All I am saying aside from that, I agree you or me might not have a choice, but then again it depends on the type of job we do.  Some things you cannot bully and get good results.

No, you cannot force it.  He may get block. But I just say he could also choose to walk. We can't tell.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on September 08, 2022, 11:37:36 AM
No, you cannot force it.  He may get block. But I just say he could also choose to walk. We can't tell.

Very true, his plans were huge for this series in the number of books, a lifetime of books to write.. Then he decided to start two other series at the same time!  His fame spread, that put more pressures on him, and life, as it usually does, happens, and the road gets rockier. Perhaps like the characters in the Dresden Files, he has some choices to make.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Ed0517 on September 10, 2022, 04:43:33 AM
Yes, though at times he has claimed two series help him write better - one is a break from the other. When he was doing Alera, he was almost always putting out one book in each series each year.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on September 10, 2022, 09:48:14 PM
Yes, though at times he has claimed two series help him write better - one is a break from the other. When he was doing Alera, he was almost always putting out one book in each series each year.

That was also a different time in his life, he was younger among other things.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Ed0517 on September 11, 2022, 09:16:54 AM
That was also a different time in his life, he was younger among other things.

...and not getting divorced...
Title: Re: Proven Guilty and my personal canon.
Post by: Mira on September 11, 2022, 10:07:18 AM
...and not getting divorced...

Yes, well, those were the other thingsI was thinking of...