Author Topic: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?  (Read 9177 times)

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2141
    • View Profile
What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« on: August 17, 2022, 12:08:04 AM »
Over in the "... first few books" thread, I wrote:

I suspect Justin was mostly his own agent, seeking his own power (but working with other parties (often as a "junior" (often a very junior) ally).  But I think I'll spin that into another thread, so as not to drift this one too much...  Justin (& his agenda) is part of Harry's (still very mysterious & unexplained) origin-story, not merely a "first few books" topic!

Herewith, the "Justin & his agency" thread ...

Harry's understanding is, Justin was simply a Warden-gone-bad.  A warlock who was seeking personal power, who grabbed Kemmler's skull as a personal power-up, dropped off-radar, then grabbed a couple of promising proto-wizards to enthrall as core of his own Brute Squad.  And summoned Outsiders because (a) why not? (b) "Dark Wizard, Harry, as dark as they come"

Which may be true, as far as it goes... but I don't think it goes far enough.

To begin with:  the odds of Justin "happening" to end up with a couple of possible/probable Starborn wizards seems vanishingly small.  Did he specifically target them?  Was he guided to them by a 3rd party, maybe not even knowing their "provenance" & significance?  Or...?

Next:  how was Harry hidden, in the orphanage... hidden even from wizards?  Morgan was looking for him; Dollars to diamonds that Eb was, too!  Remember:  these are top-tier Wardens; but Wardens aren't just "enforcers," they are also magical investigators.   Was Justin part of hiding Harry (Morgan implies so, in the "Journal" microfiction)?  If Justin wasn't... how did Justin find Harry?  Eb, after all, had blood-of-his-blood as needed to use in a tracking spell!
   
My theory (ok, "theories..." or WAGs if you will):
  • Yes, Justin was a warlock, a former Warden turned to Black Magic.  If nothing else, the enthrallment is proof: that kind of mental-domination magic is automatically a death sentence, and (per WoJ) inherently self-corruptive.
  • Harry was hidden by the Leanansidhe, as part of her "protect Harry" / "Faerie Godmother" deal with Margaret LeFay (n.b. we later saw Morgan invoke his "Summer Esquire" pin to get a period of being similarly un-findable); I have a further WAG that Mab was already involved:  she knew something BAT-y was coming up, and wanted a Wizard & Starborn as her Knight (bcuz srsly, ppl -- u wanna say Mab's Handmaiden wasn't doing Mab's will in theses portentous matters??!?  Mab, the most conniving & long-range-planning actor we know (running neck&neck with Odin).
  • It then follows from #2 that it was Lea (proxyMab) who helped DuMorne find Harry.  (Training as a wizard would absolutely be "protecting Harry" as per her deal; and it would later let her fulfill the other FG trope:  showing up to "rescue" Harry from DuMorne!  Still unclear is if they were "working together" all along, or if Lea just reached out to Justin when it was time for Harry to move on); even more mysterious, in all this:  what was Elaine's pre-Justin origin-story??!? (noting that Harry went Winter & Elaine went Summer).
  • Going back to Harry's origin -- as a Starborn, a planned birth -- we had Margaret planning this far in advance (including the infamous party where she tried to lure the Blackstaff into the plan (and where Ramp Duchess Ortega spotted the Ebenezer/Margaret family dynamic)).

So, then:  Let's go even further back.  Back to Margaret LeFay, pre-Raith.  She is walking the Ways, well-known to Faerie-kind.  Including known to Lea, and to Mab.

It is Mab herself who plants the seed of the idea with Margaret LeFay; the seed that is to become Harry Dresden:  the idea that a Starborn Wizard is a good path to power.  Mab works via Lea as proxy.  Lea is instructed to -- subtly -- put herself into Margaret's path, to encounter her often enough to strike up a relationship, to begin a series of bargains and deals.  Eventually -- when the starborn seed bears fruit -- to become the child's Faerie Godmother.

It was Mab all along.

Lea (& Mab) keep an eye on Harry & Malcom.  Eventually, Lea kills Malcom (we have WoJ that something Lea did will make Harry want to kill her), and takes Harry away to an orphanage; likely it's Mab herself keeping him veiled from all other surveillance or tracking.

Then they "permit" DuMorne to find Harry.  Maybe they even work a "bargain," where DuMorne gives them something (what?) in return for being told where to get a wizardling child of great potential.  As noted above -- at this point, they WANT Harry being given wizard training.  Hard, brutal training, of the sort Winter approves.

It was Mab all along.

AND it was ... Odin!
Because if you think that wily old wolf didn't see all the same signs that Mab saw... well, think again.  Also, Odin has seen several of the Starborn cycles... he may even have planted the idea with Mab, as she did with Margaret; 0r maybe they concocted it together.

Fast-forward'ing again, to Justin.  Mab (or Lea) gets Harry into Justin's hands.  Justin likely has little to no idea how much high-level planning, for decades at least, has gone into this moment.  He may not even know he's got a Starborn 'prentice.

He thinks he's just pursuing his own power, his own best interests.
That just makes him more amenable to being manipulated as a pawn of much-greater powers.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2980
    • View Profile
Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2022, 02:01:31 AM »
Gosh, even I am amazed by this.

The new facts added to the timeline by the Law is that Nameless was an associate of Kemmler and knew of Bob, and that in the fallout of Kemmlers latest death he sought Asylum in Winter and he was kicked out of Arctis Tor after the attack on it in Proven Guilty.

Why didn’t Nameless take Bob himself? Bob was deathly afraid of Mab so Nameless couldn’t take Bob back to Winter, and as soon as Nameless swore to Winter she would know of him (which suggest Mab has known about Bob ever since Harry took on the Mantle back in Changes as a vassal of her vassal)  Nameless would need someone to hold onto Bob in the mortal world, especially with regard to The Word. That was Justin seduced by a Demi-god of Discord.

This is before Harry or even Thomas is born, the elusive Margaret LeFay would be visiting both Faerie Courts during the period from Kemmler’s death onward where Nameless had ensconced himself in Winter (I doubt Summer would have had him) Nameless introduces Margaret to his associate Lord Raith  to control her, if Nameless had bound her to him like Laplander she would have become a vassal of Winter and Mab would know under Winter Law. Raith lets Nameless down when Margaret escapes, perhaps with the Leansidhes help before his pet Starborn can be conceived. That means Nameless has a grudge against Lea, and Raith.

Nameless kills Malcolm and uses his legal and magical skills to make Harry vanish, frustrating the watching Morgan, who even Nameless is wary of.

Where did Justin learn the type of mind control on Elaine? It isn’t something even Wardens are taught, but there is one new character who appears to have used exactly the same type of mind control- Nameless on Ms Laplander. Nameless teaches the technique to Justin as Justin is to train the Starborn. Justin gets above himself and takes on Elaine as a second apprentice, practising on her the technique which is a fatal mistake.

Harry kills Justin and takes Bob, Elaine seeks asylum in Summer. Nameless cannot intervene as Lea was summoned by Harry, intensifying his grudge against her.

Nameless tests Harry by throwing Victor Sells and the HexenWulf at Harry. Harry passes.

Nameless gets his revenge on Lea in Grave Peril, (and tries to on Raith later in White Night) leaving her nemfected. Mab becomes involved with Harry for the first time in Summer Knight, as Lea appears to be breaking Winter Law. She takes on Leas bargain with Harry as payment for Leas cure. Harry passes her test solves the case and to her surprise kills an immortal showing his Destroyer tendency. The offer of being the new Winter Knight is made at this point.

In Dead Beat a copy of The Word is unearthed bringing out the Kemmlerites and Nameless, Nameless takes advantage of the situation to try for a power up which would allow for him to break away from Mab and Winter Law. He fails.

In Small Favour Uriel is introduced, in The Warrior Uriel tells Harry about the myriad small impacts he has had on people.

In Proven Guilty we get the attack on Arctis Tor which sees Nameless expelled, but Molly comes to Mab’s attention as a possible back up to her back up Winter Lady, Lea is cured and tasked with training Molly (a strange task otherwise for Mab’s second).

In White Night Nameless is sowing discord amongst the Houses of the White Court in revenge for Raith’s earlier failure.

In Changes Harry finally accepts the Mantle, after Uriel turns him down, but after Sanya saves his life. Mab learns about Bob but Harry is about to use him in the genocide of the Red Court, shortly thereafter Harry gets himself shot, and Bob goes to Butters and away from Mab’s control.

In Ghost Story Mab is shown to be working with Uriel all along .

In Skin Game Uriel lends Michael his Grace to allow Harry to finish the mission.

In Peace Talks and Battle Ground Sanya is stranded in Chicago just when Harry needs him. Uriel’s doing, as was the creation of a second Knight in Skin Game.

Mab hasn’t been controlling Harry’s destiny, (at least not before) Summer Knight, Uriel has. There is one Uriel in the Multiverse, but a Mab for each universe, so when Harry’s decision in Grave Peril (Susan or Michael, meant he tried for both) it created a new timeline where Harry could be the Harry we know, and the potential saviour of this cycle for the multiverse, but to do that Uriel had to allow events to unfold to this point, as all the other Dresdens failed. That’s when he started working with Mab on Harry. Uriel allowed for the manipulation of Margaret LeFay, Malcolm and Harry by Nameless, and thereafter Harry by Mab.

Nameless is of course Cowl, the demi-god of Discord and a Lawyer (which is much the same thing with more paperwork). Uriel can rarely intervene in the mortal world, but he really doesn’t have to, he picks the winners of a multitude of worlds, letting an infinite number of Dresden’s use their free will to make an infinite number of different decisions which either advance his goals or not. Free will  means Harry has to act like Harry, Cowl like Cowl, Mab like Mab etc.

Harry really isn’t being controlled by anyone, he’s just the Harry who has had the right decisions made about him and by him to get to this point.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24038
    • View Profile
Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2022, 10:08:11 AM »
Quote
It was Mab all along.

Think so, there are plenty of hints that Winter's protection of her baby was one of the assurances that motivated Margaret to give birth to Harry.  Though it appears that the White Council had a lot to do with it as well.  But Margaret threw a monkey wrench in all of their plans, she picked the father, and he was one of the purest and good souls alive, Malcolm.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2980
    • View Profile
Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2022, 11:05:07 AM »
The Leansidhe not Winter, she was definitely acting in her own interest when dealing with Margaret and Harry, their bargains were personal to her, not made with Winter.

The Leansidhe is effectively a muse, she provides inspiration to the gifted , raising them up  but causes them an early death (which is why I think she is Bob’s mother, they die when a new spirit of intellect emerges as Harry nearly did) these are bargains she does in her right, not on behalf of Winter, in the same way Nameless represents Marcone in Court unless Winter Law gets in the way. Not everything a denizen of Winter does is automatically an act of Winter, unless you are a Queen.

Mab only became involved with Harry when Lea was nemfected, because she has a Mantle it became Winter business at that point.

There is a WOJ that when Harry finds out the true nature of Margaret’s deal with Lea he will want to kill her. That I think leads to two possibilities (1) that Lea wanted the first daughter of her line, which would be Maggie, or (2) that Margaret traded Malcolm’s life for Harry as part of her usual schtick, and Lea killed Malcolm perhaps giving rise to a new spirit of intellect in the process. Either would incite Harry to murder her. I favour (1) as there is another WOJ that Maggie is going to be something different, perhaps a new Leansidhe? She already has a thing for large dogs…..

Offline forumghost

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2728
    • View Profile
Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2022, 11:30:18 AM »
One thing I'd like to point out is that Justin was apparently part of Maggie Sr's little Injustice League back in the day:

Quote from: Blood Rites
"The Council knew that you were the son of Margaret LeFay. They knew that she was one of the wizards who had turned the Council's own laws against it. She was guilty of violating the First Law, among others, and she had . . . unsavory associations with various entities of dubious reputation. The Wardens were under orders to arrest her on sight. She'd have been tried and executed in moments when she was brought before the Council." "I was told she died in childbirth," I said. "She did," Ebenezar confirmed. "I don't know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates—including Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well."

So there's a possible angle to consider there
« Last Edit: August 17, 2022, 11:32:35 AM by forumghost »

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2022, 12:17:38 PM »
I lay Margaret's death at Lea's feet.  A White vampire for Malcolm.  Maybe Madeline. But Butcher has twisted things so badly in Battle Ground I no longer think that these are safe bets.  Otherwise you  WAGS would seem to be in the ballpark.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24038
    • View Profile
Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2022, 01:17:44 PM »
One thing I'd like to point out is that Justin was apparently part of Maggie Sr's little Injustice League back in the day:

So there's a possible angle to consider there

Yeah, and the angle here is Malcolm.  Love can do weird and wonderful things, falling in love did exactly that to Margaret.  Keep in mind, she still understood the big picture as to why a star born child needed to be born and guided, she also understood that it's genetic make up was also important.  That is why it is repeated over and over again through out the series that Harry inherited his heart and disposition from his father, Malcolm.  That balances out the "destroyer" elements of your average star born.  I don't think Lea is the bad guy in this, but rather as a fae, she doesn't fully understand humans.  That was the flaw in Margaret's thinking when she asked her to be Harry's godmother and protector. 

On one level I think Margaret underestimated the enemy, and those she asked to protect her child and her husband, i.e. Morgan were woefully out gunned.  She didn't underestimate Lord Raith though, she knew that leaving him would piss him off and ultimately cost her her life.  She understood that he was protected and impossible to kill outright, but at the same time she understood the Hunger Demon and how if she couldn't defeat it, she at least could hold it in check.  So with this knowledge she carefully planned out her death curse long before her death to have maximum effect on Raith and ultimately lead to his downfall.

I also think Justin was at least aware of the White Council's plan to breed a star born.  He knew that Margaret was part of that plan, who knows he may have imagined that he could seduce Margaret and be the father of such a child.  That went out the window when Margaret met Malcolm. One question would be, was Justin aware of Malcolm before Margaret left his circle? If he was, he might have been in on Malcolm's murder.. Then that accomplished, keep track of Harry through the foster parent system and keep him there for a number of years to cover his tracks.. Also he may have wanted to wait to see if at the age of eleven or twelve if Harry started to show exceptional talent, which he did.  Then he moved in to adopt the boy, he also adopted Elaine, not so much because he thought she might also be a star born, but because she had talent, she'd be useful to his ultimate plans, and again, cover his tracks.  And he almost pulled it off.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2980
    • View Profile
Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2022, 01:54:38 PM »
Why would the White Court kill Malcolm?, he has no hand in Margaret’s escape.

Certainly the White Council were after Harry, but this suggests my Justin was an agent of the Merlin theory, but under that theory there is no possibility of Justin learning how to enslave Harry and Elaine. The White Council are woefully bad at anything which smacks of infringing the seven laws.

I think there were several groups trying to get Harry, and Morgan perhaps had the purest motives to respect Margaret’s wishes. Eb would have tried to force Harry into his mould exactly like he tried a failed with Margaret and certainly contemplated with Maggie. The Merlin was pure politics, Harry to him was nothing more than the Eye of Balor, a weapon, and this distracted Morgan, together with Eb’s attempts. Whoever was behind Justin had the same idea as the Merlin, they merely implemented things much more smoothly and preemptively (so definitely not the Merlin). That’s why I consider Nameless is in the frame. He is definitely a calculating and bold actor.

Justin tried to ingratiate himself with Margaret, on Nameless orders (we all pretty much agree he was an agent and not a principal, even if we disagree as to whose agent)she may have thought him to be working for her father given him previously being a Warden when Eb was Captain, scaring her off.

Lea may not originated as Human like Mab did, making her even more alien than Mab.

My thought on Elaine is this, if Harry could not enslaved as a willing cats paw (and so far nobody has been successful) Elaine gave them another way into the problem, they create a love interest, enslave her and use her to manipulate Harry through conventional means. That why Justin enslaved Elaine first.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24038
    • View Profile
Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2022, 02:24:01 PM »
Quote
Why would the White Court kill Malcolm?, he has no hand in Margaret’s escape.

I didn't say they had anything to do with killing Malcolm.  Lord Raith did kill Margaret, and she knew she was doomed from the moment she left him for Malcolm, so she preplanned her death curse to do as much damage as possible to Lord Raith.
Quote

Certainly the White Council were after Harry, but this suggests my Justin was an agent of the Merlin theory, but under that theory there is no possibility of Justin learning how to enslave Harry and Elaine. The White Council are woefully bad at anything which smacks of infringing the seven laws.
So? When Margaret was chummy with Justin, if he wasn't already, he was well on his way to being a warlock.  The Seven Laws wouldn't mean anything to him.. Proof of that is he never taught Harry anything about them, heck he didn't even mention that the White Council existed.

Eb does remain a mystery, why he seemingly made no moves to protect his son in law and grandson.. Or why he allowed his grandson to fade into the foster care system after his son in law was murdered.  This bit is all very confusing, most of the Council weren't aware that Margaret was his daughter.. They apparently had plans of some kind for her to birth a star child, but then totally screwed up once that child was born. 
Quote
Justin tried to ingratiate himself with Margaret, on Nameless orders (we all pretty much agree he was an agent and not a principal, even if we disagree as to whose agent)she may have thought him to be working for her father given him previously being a Warden when Eb was Captain, scaring her off.
No evidence as of yet anyway that Nameless had anything to do with anything, or an agent of anyone.
Quote
may not originated as Human like Mab did, making her even more alien than Mab.
Which is why making her Harry's godmother was a huge mistake on Margaret's part.  Lea did make attempts to protect Harry, but her idea of protecting him, i.e. making him one of her hunting hounds at one point would hardly convince Harry that she had his best interest at heart, even if she did. Lea never has had a good idea of what the human view of things are. 
Quote
My thought on Elaine is this, if Harry could not enslaved as a willing cats paw (and so far nobody has been successful) Elaine gave them another way into the problem, they create a love interest, enslave her and use her to manipulate Harry through conventional means. That why Justin enslaved Elaine first.

But even that gets a little murky... There is that moment in Summer Knight when Elaine tells Harry that he was able to get away from Justin because she used a special knot that he could easily get out of.. But then again that scene has changed over the books as well, I doubt that even the flash backs in Ghost Story will be the end of it.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2022, 05:22:43 PM »
Why would the White Court kill Malcolm?
They can kill without leaving a trace. And not the Court but one individual. It makes Harry an orphan. Unless you think is was random chance.  First isolate Harry and make Malcolm his only attachment point.  When the time is right kill Malcolm. Harry goes into the system.  This is tailor made to create a sociopath or psychopath or whatever. Harry gets his magic, out pops Justin who mixes cruelty and affection in the right doses and supplies Harry with a sexual partner. You get a monster with a lot of power.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24038
    • View Profile
Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2022, 06:05:06 PM »
They can kill without leaving a trace. And not the Court but one individual. It makes Harry an orphan. Unless you think is was random chance.  First isolate Harry and make Malcolm his only attachment point.  When the time is right kill Malcolm. Harry goes into the system.  This is tailor made to create a sociopath or psychopath or whatever. Harry gets his magic, out pops Justin who mixes cruelty and affection in the right doses and supplies Harry with a sexual partner. You get a monster with a lot of power.
Yes, and do it in such a way that Malcolm wouldn't feel threatened while it was happening.  Being a female, I have no clue what guys dream about when they have wet dreams, but just Googled it. What it said was it wasn't uncommon to sleep through a wet dream, and it isn't uncommon for an adult to have them.  So a WCVamp could feed on a sleeping Malcolm until he died while dreaming a dream of pleasure.  And unless he shared a bed with his father, it is unlikely that a six year old child would be wakened by any of this.  However having said all of that, I still don't think the White Court had anything to do with Malcolm's death.. However Justin could very well have.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2022, 07:28:22 PM by Mira »

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2141
    • View Profile
Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2022, 07:33:03 PM »
Gosh, even I am amazed by this.
   ;D ;D ;D
 My work here is done!

...

Oh wait, no it's not!   ;)

... Why didn’t Nameless take Bob himself? Bob was deathly afraid of Mab so Nameless couldn’t take Bob back to Winter ... 


I have a separate WAG, here:
Bob says he is terrified of Winter, & Mab.  What if Mab is actually only mildly amused by the whole "Bob situation?"  What if she regards Bob mostluy as an asset?  I mean:  do you REALLY think that Mab didn't know -- when she told Harry, "kill Maeve" -- that Harry could learn how from Bob?

I've heard the theory that Lea was Bob's nonhuman parent; what if that was on Mab's orders?  Or even Mab herself???  Done explicitly to create an asset within the mortal world, a tempting entity that wizards would value?

... Nameless kills Malcolm and uses his legal and magical skills to make Harry vanish ... 

I really think that our clue was Morgan's use of the Summer Favor.  Jim showed us that happening, and that's where he told us how Harry vanished.  Yes, there are undoubtedly any number of other magical entities who could have done it; but Mr. Butcher loves his clues and his EasterEggs, and Morgan's use of the Summer Token was how he showed us the "vanishing trick" that was used on Harry.  Plus, as noted, WoJ says Lea did something that would make Harry want to kill her, and murdering Malcom (to steal Harry) seems the faerie-narrative straighforward option (it's even in-keeping with the "protect Harry" edict -- in Lea's own, inimitable "crazy scary sidhe lady" way -- since mortal Malcom would be unable to "protect Harry" in the face of supernatural threats).


Where did Justin learn the type of mind control on Elaine?  It isn’t something even Wardens are taught...

Bob is the obvious source.  Capiorcorpus knew a tremendous amount of mind-magic, and we can presume their master Kemmler knew quite a bit, too (and thus lab-assistant-cum-notebook Bob also does); this is amply confirmed the very first time Harry met BlueEyedBob, who promptly mentally-paralyzed Harry.

... Mab becomes involved with Harry for the first time in Summer Knight ...

Seriously?
You're saying that Mab wasn't involved before this?  Outsider-fighting, long-range-planning, ultra-manipulative Mab, who knew the Starborn cycle was due again?  Who knew Margaret LeFay?  Whose own handmaiden was the boy's Faerie Godmother???

And that person "becomes involved with Harry for the first time in Summer Knight" ???

I've got a bridge to Arctis Tor to sell you, man...  Weird little glitch in an ancient Winter contract.  Just need to exercise your option!

... In Proven Guilty ... Molly comes to Mab’s attention as a possible back up to her back up Winter Lady, Lea is cured and tasked with training Molly (a strange task otherwise for Mab’s second).

Au contraire, mon ami!
Lea was seeing to Molly's training for at least a year or two already!

Winter knew of the Knights, obviously (and was very interested, as witness their attempts to grab a Sword from time to time).  And the confluence of Harry with a Knight is doubly-interesing... or maybe interesting-squared.

That automatically makes Molly interesting to Mab and to Lea.

So when Molly begins to show Talent, they "arrange" for her to get "appropriate" training (i.e. haphazard, explicitly with clues to (Black) mind-magic).  This sets her up to be interesting to Harry, and vulnerable to Mab's fetches.

Molly was taken to Arctis Tor on Mab's explicit orders; the Fetches were there on Mab's explicit orders; it was -- again! -- all Mab.

Mab hasn’t been controlling Harry’s destiny, (at least not before) Summer Knight, Uriel has ...
Harry really isn’t being controlled by anyone, he’s just ...
Neither Mab nor Uriel has been "controlling" Harry, nor his destiny.  They've nevertheless both had their hands in, stirring the pot and adding new challenges & new opportunities (with Odin right alongside them, it should be noted!).  But Uriel is all about the "free will," so "controlling destiny" is anathema to him.  Similarly, Mab needs Harry to be free-willed to be a top-tier Knight (which she needs for the coming conflict).
 

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24038
    • View Profile
Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2022, 07:53:37 PM »

  Another thought about Justin being in on Malcolm's death, then seeing to it that Harry "disappeared" into the foster system.  It was the plan all along, given the hundreds and yeah after five years thousands even, of kids processed through the system, how is it that Justin just happened to find out about Elaine and Harry? Did Justin ever strike you as the nurturing type who desperately wanted a son and daughter of his own to raise and train? He wasn't, not without a plan, and further he may have had someone with in the system to let Justin know about these kids.

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2141
    • View Profile
Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2022, 09:36:58 PM »
  Another thought about Justin being in on Malcolm's death, then seeing to it that Harry "disappeared" into the foster system.  It was the plan all along, given the hundreds and yeah after five years thousands even, of kids processed through the system, how is it that Justin just happened to find out about Elaine and Harry? Did Justin ever strike you as the nurturing type who desperately wanted a son and daughter of his own to raise and train? He wasn't, not without a plan, and further he may have had someone with in the system to let Justin know about these kids.

If Justin was "in on" Malcolm's death, he was very-likely equally "in on" the hiding-Harry action, knew the brat was LeFay's get (and via Salic Law, a likely wizard); and maybe even knew of her Kwisatz Haderach plans.

As per my own theory in the OP above, it was actually Faerie action that "vanished" Harry:  Lea being Faerie Godmother, protecting Harry.

Then later -- when the plans called for him to be trained as a wizard -- she "sold" him (bargained him (Faeries LOVE to bargain for Firstborn children!) to Justin DuMorne.

###

I have *NO* idea how Elaine got roped-in to Justin's plans; but consensus seems to be that she's also a Starborn, or at least a Starborn-candidate.

Given that she ended up Summer-aligned -- and Harry ended up Winter-aligned -- I have to presume that (due to "Summer/Winter balance" in the Dresdenverse; when one moves the other perforce makes a matching counter-move) Summer was similarly pulling Elaine's strings... likely, even before she was conceived.  Hers too was an intentional effort to beget a Starborn wizard.  But other than that rough shape, we have (iirc/afaik) zero canonical/WoJ details about Elaine Mallory before Justin adopted her (she is remarkably a cipher in this regard; Jim has been canny here).
 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2022, 09:42:09 PM by g33k »

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2022, 10:12:13 PM »
Assuming that Malcolm was a mortal how did Lea kill him? He wasn't linked to either Court.  Doesn't that run afoul of Winter Law? Isn't that the purpose of the Winter Knight. Can Lea just go out and murder at will? Maybe I  misunderstand what Winter Law means.

If Lea had sold Harry why was she still hanging around. She  watched over Harry at the orphanage. And she was close enough that when Harry ran she was where she could offer him help.