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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: g33k on August 17, 2022, 12:08:04 AM
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Over in the "... first few books" thread, I wrote:
I suspect Justin was mostly his own agent, seeking his own power (but working with other parties (often as a "junior" (often a very junior) ally). But I think I'll spin that into another thread, so as not to drift this one too much... Justin (& his agenda) is part of Harry's (still very mysterious & unexplained) origin-story, not merely a "first few books" topic!
Herewith, the "Justin & his agency" thread ...
Harry's understanding is, Justin was simply a Warden-gone-bad. A warlock who was seeking personal power, who grabbed Kemmler's skull as a personal power-up, dropped off-radar, then grabbed a couple of promising proto-wizards to enthrall as core of his own Brute Squad. And summoned Outsiders because (a) why not? (b) "Dark Wizard, Harry, as dark as they come"
Which may be true, as far as it goes... but I don't think it goes far enough.
To begin with: the odds of Justin "happening" to end up with a couple of possible/probable Starborn wizards seems vanishingly small. Did he specifically target them? Was he guided to them by a 3rd party, maybe not even knowing their "provenance" & significance? Or...?
Next: how was Harry hidden, in the orphanage... hidden even from wizards? Morgan was looking for him; Dollars to diamonds that Eb was, too! Remember: these are top-tier Wardens; but Wardens aren't just "enforcers," they are also magical investigators. Was Justin part of hiding Harry (Morgan implies so, in the "Journal" microfiction)? If Justin wasn't... how did Justin find Harry? Eb, after all, had blood-of-his-blood as needed to use in a tracking spell!
My theory (ok, "theories..." or WAGs if you will):
- Yes, Justin was a warlock, a former Warden turned to Black Magic. If nothing else, the enthrallment is proof: that kind of mental-domination magic is automatically a death sentence, and (per WoJ) inherently self-corruptive.
- Harry was hidden by the Leanansidhe, as part of her "protect Harry" / "Faerie Godmother" deal with Margaret LeFay (n.b. we later saw Morgan invoke his "Summer Esquire" pin to get a period of being similarly un-findable); I have a further WAG that Mab was already involved: she knew something BAT-y was coming up, and wanted a Wizard & Starborn as her Knight (bcuz srsly, ppl -- u wanna say Mab's Handmaiden wasn't doing Mab's will in theses portentous matters??!? Mab, the most conniving & long-range-planning actor we know (running neck&neck with Odin).
- It then follows from #2 that it was Lea (proxyMab) who helped DuMorne find Harry. (Training as a wizard would absolutely be "protecting Harry" as per her deal; and it would later let her fulfill the other FG trope: showing up to "rescue" Harry from DuMorne! Still unclear is if they were "working together" all along, or if Lea just reached out to Justin when it was time for Harry to move on); even more mysterious, in all this: what was Elaine's pre-Justin origin-story??!? (noting that Harry went Winter & Elaine went Summer).
- Going back to Harry's origin -- as a Starborn, a planned birth -- we had Margaret planning this far in advance (including the infamous party where she tried to lure the Blackstaff into the plan (and where Ramp Duchess Ortega spotted the Ebenezer/Margaret family dynamic)).
So, then: Let's go even further back. Back to Margaret LeFay, pre-Raith. She is walking the Ways, well-known to Faerie-kind. Including known to Lea, and to Mab.
It is Mab herself who plants the seed of the idea with Margaret LeFay; the seed that is to become Harry Dresden: the idea that a Starborn Wizard is a good path to power. Mab works via Lea as proxy. Lea is instructed to -- subtly -- put herself into Margaret's path, to encounter her often enough to strike up a relationship, to begin a series of bargains and deals. Eventually -- when the starborn seed bears fruit -- to become the child's Faerie Godmother.
It was Mab all along.
Lea (& Mab) keep an eye on Harry & Malcom. Eventually, Lea kills Malcom (we have WoJ that something Lea did will make Harry want to kill her), and takes Harry away to an orphanage; likely it's Mab herself keeping him veiled from all other surveillance or tracking.
Then they "permit" DuMorne to find Harry. Maybe they even work a "bargain," where DuMorne gives them something (what?) in return for being told where to get a wizardling child of great potential. As noted above -- at this point, they WANT Harry being given wizard training. Hard, brutal training, of the sort Winter approves.
It was Mab all along.
AND it was ... Odin!
Because if you think that wily old wolf didn't see all the same signs that Mab saw... well, think again. Also, Odin has seen several of the Starborn cycles... he may even have planted the idea with Mab, as she did with Margaret; 0r maybe they concocted it together.
Fast-forward'ing again, to Justin. Mab (or Lea) gets Harry into Justin's hands. Justin likely has little to no idea how much high-level planning, for decades at least, has gone into this moment. He may not even know he's got a Starborn 'prentice.
He thinks he's just pursuing his own power, his own best interests.
That just makes him more amenable to being manipulated as a pawn of much-greater powers.
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Gosh, even I am amazed by this.
The new facts added to the timeline by the Law is that Nameless was an associate of Kemmler and knew of Bob, and that in the fallout of Kemmlers latest death he sought Asylum in Winter and he was kicked out of Arctis Tor after the attack on it in Proven Guilty.
Why didn’t Nameless take Bob himself? Bob was deathly afraid of Mab so Nameless couldn’t take Bob back to Winter, and as soon as Nameless swore to Winter she would know of him (which suggest Mab has known about Bob ever since Harry took on the Mantle back in Changes as a vassal of her vassal) Nameless would need someone to hold onto Bob in the mortal world, especially with regard to The Word. That was Justin seduced by a Demi-god of Discord.
This is before Harry or even Thomas is born, the elusive Margaret LeFay would be visiting both Faerie Courts during the period from Kemmler’s death onward where Nameless had ensconced himself in Winter (I doubt Summer would have had him) Nameless introduces Margaret to his associate Lord Raith to control her, if Nameless had bound her to him like Laplander she would have become a vassal of Winter and Mab would know under Winter Law. Raith lets Nameless down when Margaret escapes, perhaps with the Leansidhes help before his pet Starborn can be conceived. That means Nameless has a grudge against Lea, and Raith.
Nameless kills Malcolm and uses his legal and magical skills to make Harry vanish, frustrating the watching Morgan, who even Nameless is wary of.
Where did Justin learn the type of mind control on Elaine? It isn’t something even Wardens are taught, but there is one new character who appears to have used exactly the same type of mind control- Nameless on Ms Laplander. Nameless teaches the technique to Justin as Justin is to train the Starborn. Justin gets above himself and takes on Elaine as a second apprentice, practising on her the technique which is a fatal mistake.
Harry kills Justin and takes Bob, Elaine seeks asylum in Summer. Nameless cannot intervene as Lea was summoned by Harry, intensifying his grudge against her.
Nameless tests Harry by throwing Victor Sells and the HexenWulf at Harry. Harry passes.
Nameless gets his revenge on Lea in Grave Peril, (and tries to on Raith later in White Night) leaving her nemfected. Mab becomes involved with Harry for the first time in Summer Knight, as Lea appears to be breaking Winter Law. She takes on Leas bargain with Harry as payment for Leas cure. Harry passes her test solves the case and to her surprise kills an immortal showing his Destroyer tendency. The offer of being the new Winter Knight is made at this point.
In Dead Beat a copy of The Word is unearthed bringing out the Kemmlerites and Nameless, Nameless takes advantage of the situation to try for a power up which would allow for him to break away from Mab and Winter Law. He fails.
In Small Favour Uriel is introduced, in The Warrior Uriel tells Harry about the myriad small impacts he has had on people.
In Proven Guilty we get the attack on Arctis Tor which sees Nameless expelled, but Molly comes to Mab’s attention as a possible back up to her back up Winter Lady, Lea is cured and tasked with training Molly (a strange task otherwise for Mab’s second).
In White Night Nameless is sowing discord amongst the Houses of the White Court in revenge for Raith’s earlier failure.
In Changes Harry finally accepts the Mantle, after Uriel turns him down, but after Sanya saves his life. Mab learns about Bob but Harry is about to use him in the genocide of the Red Court, shortly thereafter Harry gets himself shot, and Bob goes to Butters and away from Mab’s control.
In Ghost Story Mab is shown to be working with Uriel all along .
In Skin Game Uriel lends Michael his Grace to allow Harry to finish the mission.
In Peace Talks and Battle Ground Sanya is stranded in Chicago just when Harry needs him. Uriel’s doing, as was the creation of a second Knight in Skin Game.
Mab hasn’t been controlling Harry’s destiny, (at least not before) Summer Knight, Uriel has. There is one Uriel in the Multiverse, but a Mab for each universe, so when Harry’s decision in Grave Peril (Susan or Michael, meant he tried for both) it created a new timeline where Harry could be the Harry we know, and the potential saviour of this cycle for the multiverse, but to do that Uriel had to allow events to unfold to this point, as all the other Dresdens failed. That’s when he started working with Mab on Harry. Uriel allowed for the manipulation of Margaret LeFay, Malcolm and Harry by Nameless, and thereafter Harry by Mab.
Nameless is of course Cowl, the demi-god of Discord and a Lawyer (which is much the same thing with more paperwork). Uriel can rarely intervene in the mortal world, but he really doesn’t have to, he picks the winners of a multitude of worlds, letting an infinite number of Dresden’s use their free will to make an infinite number of different decisions which either advance his goals or not. Free will means Harry has to act like Harry, Cowl like Cowl, Mab like Mab etc.
Harry really isn’t being controlled by anyone, he’s just the Harry who has had the right decisions made about him and by him to get to this point.
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It was Mab all along.
Think so, there are plenty of hints that Winter's protection of her baby was one of the assurances that motivated Margaret to give birth to Harry. Though it appears that the White Council had a lot to do with it as well. But Margaret threw a monkey wrench in all of their plans, she picked the father, and he was one of the purest and good souls alive, Malcolm.
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The Leansidhe not Winter, she was definitely acting in her own interest when dealing with Margaret and Harry, their bargains were personal to her, not made with Winter.
The Leansidhe is effectively a muse, she provides inspiration to the gifted , raising them up but causes them an early death (which is why I think she is Bob’s mother, they die when a new spirit of intellect emerges as Harry nearly did) these are bargains she does in her right, not on behalf of Winter, in the same way Nameless represents Marcone in Court unless Winter Law gets in the way. Not everything a denizen of Winter does is automatically an act of Winter, unless you are a Queen.
Mab only became involved with Harry when Lea was nemfected, because she has a Mantle it became Winter business at that point.
There is a WOJ that when Harry finds out the true nature of Margaret’s deal with Lea he will want to kill her. That I think leads to two possibilities (1) that Lea wanted the first daughter of her line, which would be Maggie, or (2) that Margaret traded Malcolm’s life for Harry as part of her usual schtick, and Lea killed Malcolm perhaps giving rise to a new spirit of intellect in the process. Either would incite Harry to murder her. I favour (1) as there is another WOJ that Maggie is going to be something different, perhaps a new Leansidhe? She already has a thing for large dogs…..
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One thing I'd like to point out is that Justin was apparently part of Maggie Sr's little Injustice League back in the day:
"The Council knew that you were the son of Margaret LeFay. They knew that she was one of the wizards who had turned the Council's own laws against it. She was guilty of violating the First Law, among others, and she had . . . unsavory associations with various entities of dubious reputation. The Wardens were under orders to arrest her on sight. She'd have been tried and executed in moments when she was brought before the Council." "I was told she died in childbirth," I said. "She did," Ebenezar confirmed. "I don't know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates—including Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well."
So there's a possible angle to consider there
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I lay Margaret's death at Lea's feet. A White vampire for Malcolm. Maybe Madeline. But Butcher has twisted things so badly in Battle Ground I no longer think that these are safe bets. Otherwise you WAGS would seem to be in the ballpark.
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One thing I'd like to point out is that Justin was apparently part of Maggie Sr's little Injustice League back in the day:
So there's a possible angle to consider there
Yeah, and the angle here is Malcolm. Love can do weird and wonderful things, falling in love did exactly that to Margaret. Keep in mind, she still understood the big picture as to why a star born child needed to be born and guided, she also understood that it's genetic make up was also important. That is why it is repeated over and over again through out the series that Harry inherited his heart and disposition from his father, Malcolm. That balances out the "destroyer" elements of your average star born. I don't think Lea is the bad guy in this, but rather as a fae, she doesn't fully understand humans. That was the flaw in Margaret's thinking when she asked her to be Harry's godmother and protector.
On one level I think Margaret underestimated the enemy, and those she asked to protect her child and her husband, i.e. Morgan were woefully out gunned. She didn't underestimate Lord Raith though, she knew that leaving him would piss him off and ultimately cost her her life. She understood that he was protected and impossible to kill outright, but at the same time she understood the Hunger Demon and how if she couldn't defeat it, she at least could hold it in check. So with this knowledge she carefully planned out her death curse long before her death to have maximum effect on Raith and ultimately lead to his downfall.
I also think Justin was at least aware of the White Council's plan to breed a star born. He knew that Margaret was part of that plan, who knows he may have imagined that he could seduce Margaret and be the father of such a child. That went out the window when Margaret met Malcolm. One question would be, was Justin aware of Malcolm before Margaret left his circle? If he was, he might have been in on Malcolm's murder.. Then that accomplished, keep track of Harry through the foster parent system and keep him there for a number of years to cover his tracks.. Also he may have wanted to wait to see if at the age of eleven or twelve if Harry started to show exceptional talent, which he did. Then he moved in to adopt the boy, he also adopted Elaine, not so much because he thought she might also be a star born, but because she had talent, she'd be useful to his ultimate plans, and again, cover his tracks. And he almost pulled it off.
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Why would the White Court kill Malcolm?, he has no hand in Margaret’s escape.
Certainly the White Council were after Harry, but this suggests my Justin was an agent of the Merlin theory, but under that theory there is no possibility of Justin learning how to enslave Harry and Elaine. The White Council are woefully bad at anything which smacks of infringing the seven laws.
I think there were several groups trying to get Harry, and Morgan perhaps had the purest motives to respect Margaret’s wishes. Eb would have tried to force Harry into his mould exactly like he tried a failed with Margaret and certainly contemplated with Maggie. The Merlin was pure politics, Harry to him was nothing more than the Eye of Balor, a weapon, and this distracted Morgan, together with Eb’s attempts. Whoever was behind Justin had the same idea as the Merlin, they merely implemented things much more smoothly and preemptively (so definitely not the Merlin). That’s why I consider Nameless is in the frame. He is definitely a calculating and bold actor.
Justin tried to ingratiate himself with Margaret, on Nameless orders (we all pretty much agree he was an agent and not a principal, even if we disagree as to whose agent)she may have thought him to be working for her father given him previously being a Warden when Eb was Captain, scaring her off.
Lea may not originated as Human like Mab did, making her even more alien than Mab.
My thought on Elaine is this, if Harry could not enslaved as a willing cats paw (and so far nobody has been successful) Elaine gave them another way into the problem, they create a love interest, enslave her and use her to manipulate Harry through conventional means. That why Justin enslaved Elaine first.
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Why would the White Court kill Malcolm?, he has no hand in Margaret’s escape.
I didn't say they had anything to do with killing Malcolm. Lord Raith did kill Margaret, and she knew she was doomed from the moment she left him for Malcolm, so she preplanned her death curse to do as much damage as possible to Lord Raith.
Certainly the White Council were after Harry, but this suggests my Justin was an agent of the Merlin theory, but under that theory there is no possibility of Justin learning how to enslave Harry and Elaine. The White Council are woefully bad at anything which smacks of infringing the seven laws.
So? When Margaret was chummy with Justin, if he wasn't already, he was well on his way to being a warlock. The Seven Laws wouldn't mean anything to him.. Proof of that is he never taught Harry anything about them, heck he didn't even mention that the White Council existed.
Eb does remain a mystery, why he seemingly made no moves to protect his son in law and grandson.. Or why he allowed his grandson to fade into the foster care system after his son in law was murdered. This bit is all very confusing, most of the Council weren't aware that Margaret was his daughter.. They apparently had plans of some kind for her to birth a star child, but then totally screwed up once that child was born.
Justin tried to ingratiate himself with Margaret, on Nameless orders (we all pretty much agree he was an agent and not a principal, even if we disagree as to whose agent)she may have thought him to be working for her father given him previously being a Warden when Eb was Captain, scaring her off.
No evidence as of yet anyway that Nameless had anything to do with anything, or an agent of anyone.
may not originated as Human like Mab did, making her even more alien than Mab.
Which is why making her Harry's godmother was a huge mistake on Margaret's part. Lea did make attempts to protect Harry, but her idea of protecting him, i.e. making him one of her hunting hounds at one point would hardly convince Harry that she had his best interest at heart, even if she did. Lea never has had a good idea of what the human view of things are.
My thought on Elaine is this, if Harry could not enslaved as a willing cats paw (and so far nobody has been successful) Elaine gave them another way into the problem, they create a love interest, enslave her and use her to manipulate Harry through conventional means. That why Justin enslaved Elaine first.
But even that gets a little murky... There is that moment in Summer Knight when Elaine tells Harry that he was able to get away from Justin because she used a special knot that he could easily get out of.. But then again that scene has changed over the books as well, I doubt that even the flash backs in Ghost Story will be the end of it.
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Why would the White Court kill Malcolm?
They can kill without leaving a trace. And not the Court but one individual. It makes Harry an orphan. Unless you think is was random chance. First isolate Harry and make Malcolm his only attachment point. When the time is right kill Malcolm. Harry goes into the system. This is tailor made to create a sociopath or psychopath or whatever. Harry gets his magic, out pops Justin who mixes cruelty and affection in the right doses and supplies Harry with a sexual partner. You get a monster with a lot of power.
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They can kill without leaving a trace. And not the Court but one individual. It makes Harry an orphan. Unless you think is was random chance. First isolate Harry and make Malcolm his only attachment point. When the time is right kill Malcolm. Harry goes into the system. This is tailor made to create a sociopath or psychopath or whatever. Harry gets his magic, out pops Justin who mixes cruelty and affection in the right doses and supplies Harry with a sexual partner. You get a monster with a lot of power.
Yes, and do it in such a way that Malcolm wouldn't feel threatened while it was happening. Being a female, I have no clue what guys dream about when they have wet dreams, but just Googled it. What it said was it wasn't uncommon to sleep through a wet dream, and it isn't uncommon for an adult to have them. So a WCVamp could feed on a sleeping Malcolm until he died while dreaming a dream of pleasure. And unless he shared a bed with his father, it is unlikely that a six year old child would be wakened by any of this. However having said all of that, I still don't think the White Court had anything to do with Malcolm's death.. However Justin could very well have.
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Gosh, even I am amazed by this.
;D ;D ;D
My work here is done!
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Oh wait, no it's not! ;)
... Why didn’t Nameless take Bob himself? Bob was deathly afraid of Mab so Nameless couldn’t take Bob back to Winter ...
I have a separate WAG, here:
Bob says he is terrified of Winter, & Mab. What if Mab is actually only mildly amused by the whole "Bob situation?" What if she regards Bob mostluy as an asset? I mean: do you REALLY think that Mab didn't know -- when she told Harry, "kill Maeve" -- that Harry could learn how from Bob?
I've heard the theory that Lea was Bob's nonhuman parent; what if that was on Mab's orders? Or even Mab herself??? Done explicitly to create an asset within the mortal world, a tempting entity that wizards would value?
... Nameless kills Malcolm and uses his legal and magical skills to make Harry vanish ...
I really think that our clue was Morgan's use of the Summer Favor. Jim showed us that happening, and that's where he told us how Harry vanished. Yes, there are undoubtedly any number of other magical entities who could have done it; but Mr. Butcher loves his clues and his EasterEggs, and Morgan's use of the Summer Token was how he showed us the "vanishing trick" that was used on Harry. Plus, as noted, WoJ says Lea did something that would make Harry want to kill her, and murdering Malcom (to steal Harry) seems the faerie-narrative straighforward option (it's even in-keeping with the "protect Harry" edict -- in Lea's own, inimitable "crazy scary sidhe lady" way -- since mortal Malcom would be unable to "protect Harry" in the face of supernatural threats).
Where did Justin learn the type of mind control on Elaine? It isn’t something even Wardens are taught...
Bob is the obvious source. Capiorcorpus knew a tremendous amount of mind-magic, and we can presume their master Kemmler knew quite a bit, too (and thus lab-assistant-cum-notebook Bob also does); this is amply confirmed the very first time Harry met BlueEyedBob, who promptly mentally-paralyzed Harry.
... Mab becomes involved with Harry for the first time in Summer Knight ...
Seriously?
You're saying that Mab wasn't involved before this? Outsider-fighting, long-range-planning, ultra-manipulative Mab, who knew the Starborn cycle was due again? Who knew Margaret LeFay? Whose own handmaiden was the boy's Faerie Godmother???
And that person "becomes involved with Harry for the first time in Summer Knight" ???
I've got a bridge to Arctis Tor to sell you, man... Weird little glitch in an ancient Winter contract. Just need to exercise your option!
... In Proven Guilty ... Molly comes to Mab’s attention as a possible back up to her back up Winter Lady, Lea is cured and tasked with training Molly (a strange task otherwise for Mab’s second).
Au contraire, mon ami!
Lea was seeing to Molly's training for at least a year or two already!
Winter knew of the Knights, obviously (and was very interested, as witness their attempts to grab a Sword from time to time). And the confluence of Harry with a Knight is doubly-interesing... or maybe interesting-squared.
That automatically makes Molly interesting to Mab and to Lea.
So when Molly begins to show Talent, they "arrange" for her to get "appropriate" training (i.e. haphazard, explicitly with clues to (Black) mind-magic). This sets her up to be interesting to Harry, and vulnerable to Mab's fetches.
Molly was taken to Arctis Tor on Mab's explicit orders; the Fetches were there on Mab's explicit orders; it was -- again! -- all Mab.
Mab hasn’t been controlling Harry’s destiny, (at least not before) Summer Knight, Uriel has ...
Harry really isn’t being controlled by anyone, he’s just ...
Neither Mab nor Uriel has been "controlling" Harry, nor his destiny. They've nevertheless both had their hands in, stirring the pot and adding new challenges & new opportunities (with Odin right alongside them, it should be noted!). But Uriel is all about the "free will," so "controlling destiny" is anathema to him. Similarly, Mab needs Harry to be free-willed to be a top-tier Knight (which she needs for the coming conflict).
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Another thought about Justin being in on Malcolm's death, then seeing to it that Harry "disappeared" into the foster system. It was the plan all along, given the hundreds and yeah after five years thousands even, of kids processed through the system, how is it that Justin just happened to find out about Elaine and Harry? Did Justin ever strike you as the nurturing type who desperately wanted a son and daughter of his own to raise and train? He wasn't, not without a plan, and further he may have had someone with in the system to let Justin know about these kids.
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Another thought about Justin being in on Malcolm's death, then seeing to it that Harry "disappeared" into the foster system. It was the plan all along, given the hundreds and yeah after five years thousands even, of kids processed through the system, how is it that Justin just happened to find out about Elaine and Harry? Did Justin ever strike you as the nurturing type who desperately wanted a son and daughter of his own to raise and train? He wasn't, not without a plan, and further he may have had someone with in the system to let Justin know about these kids.
If Justin was "in on" Malcolm's death, he was very-likely equally "in on" the hiding-Harry action, knew the brat was LeFay's get (and via Salic Law, a likely wizard); and maybe even knew of her Kwisatz Haderach plans.
As per my own theory in the OP above, it was actually Faerie action that "vanished" Harry: Lea being Faerie Godmother, protecting Harry.
Then later -- when the plans called for him to be trained as a wizard -- she "sold" him (bargained him (Faeries LOVE to bargain for Firstborn children!) to Justin DuMorne.
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I have *NO* idea how Elaine got roped-in to Justin's plans; but consensus seems to be that she's also a Starborn, or at least a Starborn-candidate.
Given that she ended up Summer-aligned -- and Harry ended up Winter-aligned -- I have to presume that (due to "Summer/Winter balance" in the Dresdenverse; when one moves the other perforce makes a matching counter-move) Summer was similarly pulling Elaine's strings... likely, even before she was conceived. Hers too was an intentional effort to beget a Starborn wizard. But other than that rough shape, we have (iirc/afaik) zero canonical/WoJ details about Elaine Mallory before Justin adopted her (she is remarkably a cipher in this regard; Jim has been canny here).
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Assuming that Malcolm was a mortal how did Lea kill him? He wasn't linked to either Court. Doesn't that run afoul of Winter Law? Isn't that the purpose of the Winter Knight. Can Lea just go out and murder at will? Maybe I misunderstand what Winter Law means.
If Lea had sold Harry why was she still hanging around. She watched over Harry at the orphanage. And she was close enough that when Harry ran she was where she could offer him help.
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Assuming that Malcolm was a mortal how did Lea kill him? He wasn't linked to either Court. Doesn't that run afoul of Winter Law? Isn't that the purpose of the Winter Knight. Can Lea just go out and murder at will? Maybe I misunderstand what Winter Law means.
I think it's only the Queens who cannot kill.
Many, MANY fae are deadly. Redcaps, rawbones... Genny Greenteeth & other water-nymph / water-hags drown victims; etc etc etc etc.
And it's easy enough to "arrange" for them to die. We saw Maeve -- in front of a huge Winter Court -- induce a fatal heart-attack. If it had been a violation of Winter Law, I expect most of the faerie courtiers would have known it!
If Lea had sold Harry why was she still hanging around. She watched over Harry at the orphanage. And she was close enough that when Harry ran she was where she could offer him help.
The timeline of my WAG is:
- Lea "kills" Malcolm (or arranges it)
- Lea veils Harry from all tracking / scrying, and gets him into the State system
- Lea watches over him for years
- when "the time is right" (i.e. Harry makes that huge magic-boosted jump at school), Lea strikes a "bargain" with Justin, "selling" Harry to him; I assume -- Fae bargaining being what it is -- that she doesn't actually "give up" her FaerieGodmother "rights" & responsibilities; she continues to watch over Harry (but basically approves of Justin's harsh training; in fact, thinks he's too gentle).
All of this largely (or so I WAG) at the behest/instigation of Mab, who is building herself a suitably-strong Starborn-Wizard candidate Winter Knight, for the upcoming apocalyptic battles.
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The guy in the WW2 cantina had cut a deal with Maeve. He chose poorly.
We're close to being in sync, with the primary difference being that I think she shielded Margaret until Harry was born and then she let the curse take her.
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Assuming that Malcolm was a mortal how did Lea kill him? He wasn't linked to either Court. Doesn't that run afoul of Winter Law? Isn't that the purpose of the Winter Knight. Can Lea just go out and murder at will? Maybe I misunderstand what Winter Law means.
If Lea had sold Harry why was she still hanging around. She watched over Harry at the orphanage. And she was close enough that when Harry ran she was where she could offer him help.
Agreed, Fae cannot kill mortals, plus Harry wasn't a first born, unless the bargain was for Malcolm's first born.
If Justin was "in on" Malcolm's death, he was very-likely equally "in on" the hiding-Harry action, knew the brat was LeFay's get (and via Salic Law, a likely wizard); and maybe even knew of her Kwisatz Haderach plans.
Yes to all of the above. I seriously doubt that Justin just happened to want to adopt a couple of future apprentices and came across Harry and Elaine by accident. Oh and isn't it a coincidence that one or both of them is a star child? There is no such thing as coincidence, if Justin didn't plan it all, who he worked for did. Locating young Harry and Elaine was prearranged, their futures were prearranged. Justin got into trouble when he thought he could use Elaine and Harry for himself, and underestimating sixteen year old Harry.
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Agreed, Fae cannot kill mortals, plus Harry wasn't a first born, unless the bargain was for Malcolm's first born.
Yes to all of the above. I seriously doubt that Justin just happened to want to adopt a couple of future apprentices and came across Harry and Elaine by accident. Oh and isn't it a coincidence that one or both of them is a star child? There is no such thing as coincidence, if Justin didn't plan it all, who he worked for did. Locating young Harry and Elaine was prearranged, their futures were prearranged. Justin got into trouble when he thought he could use Elaine and Harry for himself, and underestimating sixteen year old Harry.
The Leansidhe can and does kill mortals as a by product of her “bargain” inspiration in return for an early death. The Mortal accepts this bargain and Lea doesn’t compromise Winter Law, indeed she is working directly with it. Malcom could only be killed by Lea if he had agreed to Lea’s bargain. That would mean though Harry has a spirit of intellect sibling we don’t know about. I don’t necessarily buy that although it fits in with Jim’s WOJ about Margaret’s bargain with Lea, if it was an adjunct of that. A Lea/Malcolm spirit of intellect would be very interesting. Definitely NOT Bob unless time travel is involved (Lea is more powerful than Kringle so not impossible) we have been told by Jim in a WOJ that we have met Bob’s father and we have met Malcolm at least in spirit form….Hmmm Jim would laugh himself sick because we presume Bob’s father is someone living in the Files rather than the spirit of someone we have seen.
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The Leansidhe can and does kill mortals as a by product of her “bargain” inspiration in return for an early death. The Mortal accepts this bargain and Lea doesn’t compromise Winter Law, indeed she is working directly with it.
That sounds more like suicide than murder... It's called "free will" even if it comes from a sick mind. However that isn't the same thing as Lea going around killing mortals who don't want to die.
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... I think she shielded Margaret until Harry was born and then she let the curse take her.
You're right, of course. Margaret's bargain to protect Harry likely shielded Margaret herself, as a byproduct... right up until the moment Harry was born.
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... I seriously doubt that Justin just happened to want to adopt a couple of future apprentices and came across Harry and Elaine by accident. Oh and isn't it a coincidence that one or both of them is a star child? There is no such thing as coincidence, if Justin didn't plan it all, who he worked for did. Locating young Harry and Elaine was prearranged, their futures were prearranged...
I don't think it has ever been specified whether Harry's "First time" (manifesting magic) was under care of the orphanage, or Justin. Really could have been either. I'm inclined to think Harry showed magic at the orphanage & Justin arrived to adopt him shortly thereafter, but I know of no defiinitive answer (or even strong hints, really) either way.
But no; Justin wasn't rando-adopting. He wanted (and got) strong magical apprentices.
I'm unclear on whether he wanted (and got) Starborn's, or if that was someone else's arrangement (lookin' at you, Mab!); certainly, it was no accident.
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@geek and CT. BEEN THINKING OF SOMETHING I LIKE THIS FOR A WHILE. The hat was supposed to stop you stealing my thoughts before i had them. Hats off to you. Slow clapping sounds
I think the main driver for all this is Mr Sunshine. At some point Harry is going to be like 'the world was on fire and it wasn't my fault '
Mab rolls her eyes and goes of course its not.
Then the reveal than Mab, Odin and Mr Sunshine manipulated nemesis in to infecting justin.
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Pesonally I don't think Justin was Nemesis'd at all.
Remember, we never get any actual indication that hhwb was actually sent by Justin, Harry just assumes that because hhwb mentions him.
hhwb was definitely trying to manipulate Harry in that fight, and the last thing that Justin said before he decided to suddenly drop old-school indoctrination for magical enthrallment was that he had enemies and needed people he could trust.
Methinks he got wind of a walker looking for him and decided he needed his pet starborn ready yesterday.
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Tinfoil Hat, as I point out Uriel has an overview of the Multiverse, but can hardly intervene in any particular universe. That means that Uriel can do the slightest of nudges in a universe where it will do the most good. The Dresden we see is the Dresden who is going to win, all the others failed, and we don’t see them (until Mirror Mirror).
We know Uriel has nudged this Dresden definitely by providing him with Soul Fire in Small Favour and a fully fit Michael in Skin Game. I suspect turning him down in Changes was a nudge towards the Winter Knight Mantle given that Sanya saved him, and the same in Battle Ground saving him from killing Murphy’s killer.
I think Uriel was responsible for Mouse ending up with Dresden, mouse is semi-divine himself, another nudge. We don’t see for example the universe where Harry gave Mouse back to the brother, despite Uriel’s nudge and Harry died at the hands of the black court vamp security guard. By Peace Talks Harry is recognising some of these nudges and anticipates them, he isn’t surprised Sanya is in town.
Uriel’s involvement with This Dresden I think dates from when Harry met Michael, those universes where Harry never met Michael or either never existed are all effectively dead ends from Uriel’s point of view. Uriel doesn’t need to intervene earlier than this because free will across a multiverse means at least one Dresden gets to the point of meeting Michael. He just has to wait and see.
Mab isn’t in a similar position she has only one universe to play with but she has a greater scope of action in that universe. She isn’t an Intellectus so she won’t know Harry from Tom or Dick unless and until he comes to her attention. Lea was aware of Harry from his birth, but Lea had her own agenda for Harry, a universe where Harry Dresden became a Furry. If Mab was involved with Harry it was most likely when Mister came into Harry’s life and he was Mab’s spy (Malk Changeling theory) around 1997. If so this may have been just after Harry met Michael (we aren’t given a timing for this but it would be around 1997 given Misters Age ) which would mean Uriel tipping Mab off about Harry. One of Harry’s memories of his father was of him picking up an abandoned kitten and nursing it back to health. I wouldn’t put it past Mab to rummage around in Harry’s memories and then selecting a Malk Changeling Kitten cut off the overlong tail and leave it for Harry to find, as a spy behind his threshold, separate to Lea.
Mab only becomes actively involved following Grave Peril which gives her the opportunity to hijack Leas agenda and her bargain with Harry. Winter Law would have prevented her involvement in Leas bargains before this. This gave her a handle on Harry for the first time.
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Pesonally I don't think Justin was Nemesis'd at all.
Remember, we never get any actual indication that hhwb was actually sent by Justin, Harry just assumes that because hhwb mentions him.
This has occurred to me, too. But you don't have to be "Nemesis'd" to be arrogant -- or desperate -- enough to think you can summon an Outsider and NOT pay an outsized price; and as we know, wizards don't lack for arrogance. Since he had stolen Kemmler's black-magic artifact -- and was working mind-control magic -- we know he was willing to repeatedly break the Laws.
The complete lack of any actual Justin+HWWB moments and/or summoning is notable, though!
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I don't think it has ever been specified whether Harry's "First time" (manifesting magic) was under care of the orphanage, or Justin. Really could have been either. I'm inclined to think Harry showed magic at the orphanage & Justin arrived to adopt him shortly thereafter, but I know of no defiinitive answer (or even strong hints, really) either way.
There was, I cannot remember the book, but Harry says he was about eleven. It wasn't overt maybe, but he said it showed itself when suddenly he could out jump and run the other kids. Harry showed magic and Justin just happened to arrive shortly after to adopt him? Really? All just a coincidence?
But no; Justin wasn't rando-adopting. He wanted (and got) strong magical apprentices.
I'm unclear on whether he wanted (and got) Starborn's, or if that was someone else's arrangement (lookin' at you, Mab!); certainly, it was no accident.
Not Mab, remember the tidbits HWWB tormented young Harry with just before Harry blew him up in the gas station.
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I lay Margaret's death at Lea's feet. A White vampire for Malcolm. Maybe Madeline.
I kind of doubt a WCV killing someone so quietly that their kid sleeps through it in the same hotel room. Just because he died smiling doesn't mean it was a Raith.
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I kind of doubt a WCV killing someone so quietly that their kid sleeps through it in the same hotel room. Just because he died smiling doesn't mean it was a Raith.
Depends on how tired the kid is and how sound a sleeper he is. So yeah, very plausible that six year old Harry slept through it, particularly if there was no struggle on the part of Malcolm. Have you ever carried your sleeping child from the car to the house? While yeah, some kids do wake up, but the majority sleep through it all.
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I kind of doubt a WCV killing someone so quietly that their kid sleeps through it in the same hotel room. Just because he died smiling doesn't mean it was a Raith.
Sex isn't always loud and noisy, even for Whites. But it's just a thought.There was, I cannot remember the book, but Harry says he was about eleven. It wasn't overt maybe, but he said it showed itself when suddenly he could out jump and run the other kids. Harry showed magic and Justin just happened to arrive shortly after to adopt him? Really? All just a coincidence? Not Mab, remember the tidbits HWWB tormented young Harry with just before Harry blew him up in the gas station.
The answer to which book is Ghost Story.
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Imho the real problem with a Wamp killing Malcolm is that they would absolutely have killed harry too.
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Imho the real problem with a Wamp killing Malcolm is that they would absolutely have killed harry too.
Not necessarily so, someone or thing had plans for the young star born. Actually Justin could have killed Malcolm, since he did or nearly enthrall Elaine, Justin knew mind magic. We still don't know the cause of death as written on a certificate somewhere, all we know is supposedly Malcolm died with a smile on his face. Lord knows what a warlock could do with mind magic. We've seen what the Corpsetaker can do, she nearly killed Harry with it.
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Not necessarily so, someone or thing had plans for the young star born. Actually Justin could have killed Malcolm, since he did or nearly enthrall Elaine, Justin knew mind magic. We still don't know the cause of death as written on a certificate somewhere, all we know is supposedly Malcolm died with a smile on his face. Lord knows what a warlock could do with mind magic. We've seen what the Corpsetaker can do, she nearly killed Harry with it.
True, but if a Raith went after Malcolm, they'd want Margaret's son dead for sure.
My money would be on Justin getting Harry isolated and desperate in the system so he could swoop in and 'save' him as the more likely candidate.
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True, but if a Raith went after Malcolm, they'd want Margaret's son dead for sure.
My money would be on Justin getting Harry isolated and desperate in the system so he could swoop in and 'save' him as the more likely candidate.
Madeline Raith marched to the beat of a different drummer. Papa appears to have cared less. Maybe BC.
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Imho the real problem with a Wamp killing Malcolm is that they would absolutely have killed harry too.
Anyone with an "Oblivion War" agenda (e.g. Lara) could have wanted to manipulate (but keep alive at virtually any cost) a Starborn...
And a Whamp under orders might have killed Malcolm but left Harry alive; or a Whamp unaware of the whole Starborn issue. Whether or not a Whamp did the deed, the question remains "who aimed the Ramp at Malcolm and/or Harry?"
Or a Whamp could have done Malcolm, turned to Harry saying, "and now to wrap up this loose thread..."
Only to face Lea, asking them "Have you ever heard of a Faerie Godmother ... ?"
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Anyone with an "Oblivion War" agenda (e.g. Lara) could have wanted to manipulate (but keep alive at virtually any cost) a Starborn...
And a Whamp under orders might have killed Malcolm but left Harry alive; or a Whamp unaware of the whole Starborn issue. Whether or not a Whamp did the deed, the question remains "who aimed the Ramp at Malcolm and/or Harry?"
Or a Whamp could have done Malcolm, turned to Harry saying, "and now to wrap up this loose thread..."
Only to face Lea, asking them "Have you ever heard of a Faerie Godmother ... ?"
I don't think it went down that way, it would be an interesting horrific twist if Harry found out that it was Lara that murdered his father. If a vamp did it, it would have to have been the branch of the White Court that killed with pleasure. If it went down that way or some other way, the question still remains, who was the cat working the paw? I need to go back and reread Harry's flash back in Ghost Story, and his conversations with Lea as well. There are hints there to be gleaned.
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I don't think it went down that way ...
I don't think it was a Whamp, either.
At least, not directed by a Whamp -- one of them may have been somebody's "murder weapon," of course; that whole "Malcolm died with a smile on his face" really could have been Jim foreshadowing his intentions, instead of Jim planting a red herring. Only time will tell, I suspect...
I'm just presenting the notion as a "what-if" thought experiment.
Meanwhile, I keep going back to the WoJ that, if Harry knew what Lea had done, he'd want to kill her (I really need to track down that WoJ and re-read it!). Remember, atop Arctis Tor he was "gallantly" moved to rescue Lea. I think there are very very few things Lea might have done that would move Harry murderously.
Killing Malcolm is very high on that list; or killing his mom (killing her by removing the veil on her, the moment Harry was born; knowing an Entropy-Curse would strike momentarily).
Hmmmmm.
What if Margaret bargained a twofer? "Protect my Starborn babe 'til they're old enough and strong enough to protect themself." That will, of necessity, obligate Lea to veil Margaret too (until the baby is born). What if she wasn't yet pregnant? What if that's the core of her "keep safe from Raith's Entropy-Curse"? I expect others were searching for her, too. A top-tier Faerie veil could do the trick; the entire WC warden-corps couldn't get through one.
I remain convinced that Mab (she of the far-reaching plans; she whose largest activity is the anti-Outsider war) was profoundly complicit in Margaret's intention to have a Starborn child; and thus, so too Mab's handmaiden.
... it would be an interesting horrific twist if Harry found out that it was Lara that murdered his father ...
Yes indeed; and this "torment Harry" element is, to me, the single greatest argument in favor of this notion.
... that way or some other way, the question still remains, who was the cat working the paw?
Absolutely. Much more meaningful to know who the cat, and why the kill.
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Meanwhile, I keep going back to the WoJ that, if Harry knew what Lea had done, he'd want to kill her (I really need to track down that WoJ and re-read it!). Remember, atop Arctis Tor he was "gallantly" moved to rescue Lea. I think there are very very few things Lea might have done that would move Harry murderously.
That goes back to the "what ifs." Okay, if Harry found out it was Lea who talked his mother into giving birth to a star born? What if, and Lea keeps hinting at this, that he didn't need to bargain with her to get what he needed to confront Justin? I could go on, but actually when you think about it it makes the most sense. Lea has said more than once that all she gave Harry was confidence. I think even Jim has said that she didn't do all that much for Harry, but young Harry foolishly put himself into Fae debt which ultimately led to him becoming Winter Knight. As Harry's god mother with the obligation to protect her god son, what if no "bargain" was needed? It was a trick, instigated by Mab perhaps, but a trick that kept Harry bound to the Winter Court. The Fae cannot lie, but if you don't do your homework they will screw you in any deal, what chance would a frightened sixteen year old have in such a negotiation? In other words, Lea was obligated to protect him, no promises needed on young Harry's part to get it, but since no one taught him that fact, Mab would say the fact that no one did, wasn't her problem.
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The one thing which would move Harry to murder is an attack on his family, the death of Malcolm or the loss of Maggie.
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The one thing which would move Harry to murder is an attack on his family, the death of Malcolm or the loss of Maggie.
Yup, so Harry strangles Lara on their wedding night...
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There has always been disharmony between when Margaret left and when Harry was conceived. How did Lea know that she would get what she paid for? Nobody could predict that Harry would become a wizard.
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There has always been disharmony between when Margaret left and when Harry was conceived. How did Lea know that she would get what she paid for? Nobody could predict that Harry would become a wizard.
The impression I've always gotten is the Winter Court had a lot to do with Margaret's final decision to conceive a star born child. Lea has dropped hints that it was the Winter Court's assurance of the baby's safety that was the final clincher. I think Margaret knew once she left Lord Raith that she was doomed, whether or not she conceived a child. I doubt that Lord Raith took being dumped for a mere vanilla mortal very well. As to whether or not the child would be born a wizard, odds were good, given Margaret's genetics, it is also possible that it's star born status would boost that chance.. But even if the child wasn't born a wizard, being a star born child ain't nothing, as they say.
As to why she didn't ask it for Malcolm's safety as well is a mystery.. It could be that it just wasn't possible.
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The one thing which would move Harry to murder is an attack on his family, the death of Malcolm or the loss of Maggie.
I have one other theory: I think that Molly was set up by Mab & Lea.
Michael -- as wielder of Amoracchius -- was very much "on their radar." Doubly-so as a close friend & ally of Dresden.
That puts Molly on their radar, too. And when she started showing talent, I think they moved in and began working on her.
Herewith, my WAG (in the form of questions) -- what if Lea began interacting with proto-wizard Molly, struggling-to-learn Molly, wanting-power (for all the "right" reasons, but...) Molly? What if Lea directed Molly away from the safer and more-benign channels? What if Lea set mind-magic and other Lawbreaking in Molly's path -- intentionally?
What if Molly turning to Black Magic was largely the work of the Leanansidhe???
Murderously-angry Harry, much?
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Molly was not part of Margaret’s deal with Lea, at this point Michael and Charity had not even met.it therefore falls outside the WOJ.
Lea and Mab certainly were interested in Molly, but it’s Molly who initiated the forbidden mind magic, which was immediately picked up by the Gatekeeper who we subsequently learn is actually an ally of Mab’s. The Gatekeeper informed Mab before Harry that she had the potential to be a back-up Winter Lady Candidate if she fell directly in Harry’s orbit, and Mab engineered much of the rest. In parallel to this was the attack on Arctis Tor which seems to have been undertaken to take advantage of the maneuvering between Mab and Titania to bring Molly to Arctis Tor, Mab needed plausible deniability so she and the majority of her forces were committed elsewhere so the Phobophages could go “on a frolic of their own”. Nameless and his allies are suspected of the attack, whether a secondary purpose was to try and flush him to try and rescue Lea/Nemesis is a point of debate. Mab needed plausible deniability because Molly was a potential wizard and therefore within the provenance of the White Council. Mab without this plausible deniability may have been in breach of her own accords. This is reasoning Nameless would understand and seek to exploit, and Mab would know this bait would work.
Remember Michael and his family were under the protection of the White God, another subsequently revealed ally of Mab’s and Michael does in fact turn up later to save Molly before the White Council, a definite collaboration between Uriel, Gatekeeper and Mab, suggesting the entire scenario was set up by them in the first place to get a good look at Molly and provide an excuse for Arctis Tor to be exposed which Nameless would swallow, forcing him to show his hand.
It’s how Mab operated in Skin Game, though by then Harry was a participant, rather than a dupe in that Scheme.
The practical effect was;-
1. Molly became Harry’s apprentice and on the road to being the Winter Lady
2. Nameless was flushed out as a confirmed traitor to the Winter Court
3. An unknown Denarian was shown to be working with Nameless, which was confirmed by the attack.
4. No breach of the Accords pressed by the White Council against Winter.
Gatekeeper, Mab and Uriel gain under this scenario
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I doubt that nameless was a twinkle in Butcher's eye when PG was written. I don't think he was in the same universe even. I might buy stock in this if somebody can give a reason why Madrigal was there.
The timing is close but Lea is pretty much on ice when Molly comes into her magic. Certainly she's nemfected. So cooperation with Mab would seem to be a non starter.
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Lea and Mab certainly were interested in Molly, but it’s Molly who initiated the forbidden mind magic, which was immediately picked up by the Gatekeeper who we subsequently learn is actually an ally of Mab’s. The Gatekeeper informed Mab before Harry that she had the potential to be a back-up Winter Lady Candidate if she fell directly in Harry’s orbit, and Mab engineered much of the rest. In parallel to this was the attack on Arctis Tor which seems to have been undertaken to take advantage of the maneuvering between Mab and Titania to bring Molly to Arctis Tor, Mab needed plausible deniability so she and the majority of her forces were committed elsewhere so the Phobophages could go “on a frolic of their own”. Nameless and his allies are suspected of the attack, whether a secondary purpose was to try and flush him to try and rescue Lea/Nemesis is a point of debate. Mab needed plausible deniability because Molly was a potential wizard and therefore within the provenance of the White Council. Mab without this plausible deniability may have been in breach of her own accords. This is reasoning Nameless would understand and seek to exploit, and Mab would know this bait would work.
One problem with this theory, while it sounds good, Denarians were part of the attack on Arctus Tor.
Mab told Harry in the chapel in Small favor that she now knew who attacked Arctus Tor and that she and Uriel had a common enemy, i.e. the Denarians.
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I have one other theory: I think that Molly was set up by Mab & Lea.
Michael -- as wielder of Amoracchius -- was very much "on their radar." Doubly-so as a close friend & ally of Dresden.
That puts Molly on their radar, too. And when she started showing talent, I think they moved in and began working on her.
Herewith, my WAG (in the form of questions) -- what if Lea began interacting with proto-wizard Molly, struggling-to-learn Molly, wanting-power (for all the "right" reasons, but...) Molly? What if Lea directed Molly away from the safer and more-benign channels? What if Lea set mind-magic and other Lawbreaking in Molly's path -- intentionally?
What if Molly turning to Black Magic was largely the work of the Leanansidhe???
Murderously-angry Harry, much?
Molly was definitely on Mab's radar. Mab says as much at the end of CD but hints that her purpose originally wasn't to be a Fae queen but something else. (My personal WAG was a bride for a Dragon, next up Hope/Maggie Jr) But she was also Mab's backup for Sarissa once that became forced.
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I doubt that nameless was a twinkle in Butcher's eye when PG was written. I don't think he was in the same universe even. I might buy stock in this if somebody can give a reason why Madrigal was there.
The timing is close but Lea is pretty much on ice when Molly comes into her magic. Certainly she's nemfected. So cooperation with Mab would seem to be a non starter.
Cowl however had been around since the start of the series which technically wasn’t in the same universe as Harry’s decision in Grave Peril led to the creation of a new universe.
There were already at this point divisions within the White Court, Madrigal hunting on Lara’s territory was a by product of this. Cowl was definitely shown to be behind the Discord (almost as if he were a Demi-god of it) in White Night. Darby Crane was an ideal GoH for Splattercon, but normally he wouldn’t have accepted the invitation, his attendance is a by product of another Cowl scheme to turn the White Court against the White Council.
My theory has Nameless as the inside man tipping his allies including a rogue Denarian that Arctis Tor is seriously undermanned as part of a plan by Mab to plausibly deny the abduction of a mortal wizard, the plan actually mostly to flush out her enemies inside and outside Winter. If this is indeed the Black Council/The Circle then she and Uriel definitely share an enemy, and were working together on the Arctis Tor ploy using Molly and Lea as bait, without eithers consent.
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Molly was definitely on Mab's radar. Mab says as much at the end of CD but hints that her purpose originally wasn't to be a Fae queen but something else. (My personal WAG was a bride for a Dragon, next up Hope/Maggie Jr) But she was also Mab's backup for Sarissa once that became forced.
What Mab said was she felt that Molly was more suited for Summer Lady, but it didn't work out that way.
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Mab wanted her own daughter as Winter Lady, but it worked out better, the Winter Knight killed Titania’s daughter, Mab’s daughter replaced her. This and both being annoyed at Harry led to something of a rapprochement.
As the Good People shows Molly isn’t Mab’s idea of a Winter Lady, but Molly is Molly’s idea of one, and the Mantle and the Redcap agree with Molly.
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However Butcher retcons it, there is what he wrote. Somebody dropped a dime on Molly that put her in the juvenile justice system. She was manipulated into performing Black Magic. That does not appear to have been Mab.
The other purpose Mab had in mind for Molly is up for grabs, she isn't explicit. But if you posited that she intended to use Molly like Justin used Elaine, to control Harry, I suspect a bookie would not bet against it. You may know a smarter bookie.
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What Mab said was she felt that Molly was more suited for Summer Lady, but it didn't work out that way.
She said that Molly was groomed for another Purpose and considered her a better candidate for Summer. It depends on where you place the emphasis on how you interpret it though. To me this other purpose was paramount and backup Fae Queen was an emergency option but I can see both views being valid.
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... Somebody dropped a dime on Molly that put her in the juvenile justice system ...
Honestly, that could have been just "random" bad luck. Not *everything* has to be part of the Grand Conspiracy. Given how prevalent marijuana is in high-school, the odds that somebody is carrying -- in a car-full of teens -- is awfully high.
But that provided an opportunity, I think, that was ruthlessly exploited... or, as you suggest, it could also have had a little nudging from the Spooky Side.
... She was manipulated into performing Black Magic. That does not appear to have been Mab...
I don't think we have *nearly* enough info on Molly's magical training/education before Proven Guilty. There's nothing to indicate that anyone in particular was (or was not) involved. Mab could have been... Titania could have been... Ancient Mai could have been... <shrugs> Or it could have been 100% mortal stuff by low-level practitioners and wannabe's and untalented booksellers &c, without any push from any of the Supernatural side of things.
My bet is on Mab (possibly via one or more proxies). I think she was "nudged" toward mind-magic (and fear) specifically to get "on the same wavelength" with the phobophages, Mab's personal cadre of Fetches.
Too many elements "came together" in PG for me to think Mab wasn't manipulating Molly from long-before the beginning of that volume.
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Molly has an aptitude for mind magic, and she sought to “help” her friends, so it was inevitable, no nudge required.
However, why didn’t she seek Harry out immediately? Harry at this point was still in Charity’s bad books, making Harry an obvious choice, so I think it was more likely someone sought to make her avoid Harry, to alienate her from him and her family so that she would do something questionable with her burgeoning power.
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Molly has an aptitude for mind magic, and she sought to “help” her friends, so it was inevitable, no nudge required.
Actually Molly isn't unusual, she discovered her talent, she hid it from everyone, including her wizard friend. Charity kept her talent quiet and out of fear and ignorance felt that if she kept it to herself it would never become an issue. So Molly was out there on her own, and while yeah, she did seek to help her friends, she found herself on the slippery slope towards warlockhood and losing her head. That is why mind magic is such a taboo in the first place, there is too much temptation connected with it, it is what cost the Koren Kid his head.
Now Mab may have admired that Molly was willing to use this magic, actually I think she did. Let's say it got her attention, however I don't think she did anything till Harry took himself out of the picture for a whole year when he was mostly dead. Then not willing to let an opportunity go to waste, Mab sent Auntie Lea to step in to teach and prep,just in case. If Maeve hadn't been infested with Nemesis and had to be killed, and if Maeve hadn't killed Lilly before she herself was killed, Molly might still be Harry's apprentice or a full wizard in her own right now, but not a member of the Winter Court.
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Honestly, that could have been just "random" bad luck. Not *everything* has to be part of the Grand Conspiracy. Given how prevalent marijuana is in high-school, the odds that somebody is carrying -- in a car-full of teens -- is awfully high.
But that provided an opportunity, I think, that was ruthlessly exploited... or, as you suggest, it could also have had a little nudging from the Spooky Side.
I don't think we have *nearly* enough info on Molly's magical training/education before Proven Guilty. There's nothing to indicate that anyone in particular was (or was not) involved. Mab could have been... Titania could have been... Ancient Mai could have been... <shrugs> Or it could have been 100% mortal stuff by low-level practitioners and wannabe's and untalented booksellers &c, without any push from any of the Supernatural side of things.
My bet is on Mab (possibly via one or more proxies). I think she was "nudged" toward mind-magic (and fear) specifically to get "on the same wavelength" with the phobophages, Mab's personal cadre of Fetches.
Too many elements "came together" in PG for me to think Mab wasn't manipulating Molly from long-before the beginning of that volume.
The events in the book were set up about the time that Cowl was getting his puppy ass kicked in Dead Beat. Madrigal was invited a year in advance. Molly was popped at about the same time. This is also the point when Lea is imprisoned. Molly only commits Black Magic two weeks before after being prompted by Sandra Marling to use fear. Mab could have done it. All that requires if for Butcher to want it to be that way. But if it was Mab manipulating Molly why go through the other events?
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... Molly only commits Black Magic two weeks before after being prompted by Sandra Marling to use fear ...
We don't know how long Molly has been flirting around the edges of mind-magic; I suspect the spells she cast on her friends weren't the very-first, though. All we know is when the Gatekeeper first notified Harry; for all we know, Rashid may have been carefully monitoring things for a year or more. Hell, as a relatively-close ally of Mab's, he may even have been party to subtly guiding Molly that way...
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Dresden,
In the past ten days there have been repeated acts of black magic in Chicago. As the senior Warden in the region, it falls to you to investigate and find those responsible. In my opinion, it is vital that you do so immediately. To my knowledge, no one else is aware of the situation.
Rashid
So at least from the standpoint of what was done to her friends we know exactly when and the source of the Black Magic. You might fairly ask why not tell Harry it was Molly? Your guess would be good as mine. It certainly isn't because of a paradox. When the book opens everything that Molly could do is done. If they are avoiding a paradox it has nothing to do with Molly.
Nobody ever questions why Uriel was involved. Or why Lash appears just before Harry wrecks. Or why Butcher chose to tell us that LC was broken.
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So at least from the standpoint of what was done to her friends we know exactly when and the source of the Black Magic. You might fairly ask why not tell Harry it was Molly? Your guess would be good as mine. It certainly isn't because of a paradox. When the book opens everything that Molly could do is done. If they are avoiding a paradox it has nothing to do with Molly.
Except with in that time frame, it wasn't just limited to Molly, the Korean Kid had to have been active around that time. At his execution the Merlin explains the zero tolerance the Council has for would be warlocks. Why? Not just because of the risks of trying to reform a kid once he starts down that road, but because they can't cover every kid of talent who starts down the wrong road. Also Rashid never specifies if it was a major application or a minor one. What is odd though, is as a Warden, Harry should have sensed it too.
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You are presuming that Rashid sensed Molly, so therefore so should have Harry.
Uriel (an intellectus) would have known and passed it on secure in the knowledge Michael would come riding to her rescue.
Alternatively Rashid’s extremely well developed Foresight would have told him and he sat on the information until the relevant time. To appear mysterious and powerful.
Neither would have been apparent to the senses of a Wizard Harry’s age.
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Yes, I thought it was foresight. And Rashid didn't tell Harry about the specifics (even if he knew), in order to not disturb the upcoming events leading to Harry entering Arctis Tor. Also I think it was about Harry learning stuff and making choices with certain powers (including the Gatekeeper) not allowed to tell him directly and not to be involved directly. Their involvement would need to be balanced and so on. This would complicate things too much.
... and also there would've been a lot less books needed to tell the story. 8)
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Uriel couldn't protect Molly since she was a victim of her own choices. He was involved obliquely because of a more direct action by someone else.
Mab's involvement was a product of having Lea on ice. She was protecting Harry. Which of course is what the whole book is about.
The Korean is brought to Chicago to get Harry in the mood to climb on his murder bus. That's what all that puking and retching is about.Yes, I thought it was foresight. And Rashid didn't tell Harry about the specifics (even if he knew), in order to not disturb the upcoming events leading to Harry entering Arctis Tor. Also I think it was about Harry learning stuff and making choices with certain powers (including the Gatekeeper) not allowed to tell him directly and not to be involved directly. Their involvement would need to be balanced and so on. This would complicate things too much.
... and also there would've been a lot less books needed to tell the story. 8)
I like that last line. A lot of truth there. However if foresight was involved the question would be foresight about what? By the time the letter reaches Harry Molly has already done the dirty. But you come by the idea honestly, Butcher feeds it to you, implying that nothing has happened yet.“Meaning that it’s possible nothing has happened, yet. But that he wanted to put you on your guard against something that’s coming in the immediate future.”
Since you know Molly had already done Black Magic the question is foresight about what?
However this digression doesn't really speak to g33k's point about Mab.
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Uriel couldn't protect Molly since she was a victim of her own choices. He was involved obliquely because of a more direct action by someone else.
Mab's involvement was a product of having Lea on ice. She was protecting Harry. Which of course is what the whole book is about.
The Korean is brought to Chicago to get Harry in the mood to climb on his murder bus. That's what all that puking and retching is about.I like that last line. A lot of truth there. However if foresight was involved the question would be foresight about what? By the time the letter reaches Harry Molly has already done the dirty. But you come by the idea honestly, Butcher feeds it to you, implying that nothing has happened yet.Since you know Molly had already done Black Magic the question is foresight about what?
However this digression doesn't really speak to g33k's point about Mab.
Uriel sees the bigger picture, which is why Molly would be swept up in the wider action involving Michael. Foresight not only of the event, but it’s proper timing in relation to Harry.
Lea was already on ice well before Proven Guilty, so it isn’t a question of protecting Harry, she has no obligation in that regard. The outcome we know from The Law is that it resulted in Nameless getting booted out of Arctis Tor, an established fact. That is why I suggest Harry and Molly were used as a pretext, another apparent attempt by Mab to recruit him through putting Molly in peril, (but also to get a good look at Molly) to do so meant pulling her forces away from Arctis Tor leaving Lea lightly guarded in the hope someone else would take the bait.
The Korean was brought to Chicago to punish Harry, he had refused to hunt down such kids as a Warden, setting a bad example to the younger wardens. That was turned against the Merlin when Michael appeared with Eb and the baby wardens, leading to a second warlock to survive the White Council’s wrath.
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Actually Mab was required to protect Harry. It's part of that liege taking on vassal's obligations while they are unable to carry them out thing. Remember Lea took on Molly while Harry was ghost walkabout in CD.
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Back to regular scheduled programing, "what the heck was Justin up to???
Curious lines in Cold Days after Justin asks Harry to put on a straight jacket.. Harry asks an important question, "Why?" To which Justin answers;Justin remained calm. "You don't have the knowledge you need to understand boy. Not yet. But you will in time."
Before that on the same page Harry asks Justin what is going on? And Justin answers;
"I'm making plans, Harry," he said in a steady, quiet voice. "I need people I can trust."
Then in the next chapter after the review of what happened after he fled.. Lea says, he was raising you two up to be enforcers.
So from the above I surmise that Justin had real delusions of grandeur, who knows, by that time he may have been infected and Nemesis was controlling him. So if Harry and Elaine were to be enforcers, just what was it they were going to enforce? But one real possibility, if Justin was infected, in the process of enthralling Elaine, she got infected, and when she ran away to the Summer Court, this is how Aurora got infected.
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Actually Mab was required to protect Harry. It's part of that liege taking on vassal's obligations while they are unable to carry them out thing. Remember Lea took on Molly while Harry was ghost walkabout in CD.
Harry was not a vassal of either Lea or Mab at the time. He was in Ghost Story.
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Harry was not a vassal of either Lea or Mab at the time. He was in Ghost Story.
Actually he was, he was Mab's Winter Knight as of Changes, that didn't change while he was mostly dead in Ghost Story.
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Harry was not a vassal of either Lea or Mab at the time. He was in Ghost Story.
I frowned. "You locked her away somewhere, but you're keeping her promises?"
Something cold and haughty flickered through Mab's eyes. "Promises must be kept," she murmured, and the words made wave, wind, and stone tremble. "My vassal's oaths and bargains are binding upon me, so long as I restrain her from fulfilling them."
"Does that mean that you will help me?" I asked.
"It means that I will give you what she might give you," Mab said, "and speak what knowledge she might have spoken to you were she here in flesh, rather than in proxy."
She was keeping Lea's promise to protect Harry in Dead Beat and in Proven Guilty.
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Harry was not a vassal of either Lea or Mab at the time. He was in Ghost Story.
Harry was not a vassal but Lea was and it was Lea's obligation that Mab was fulfilling. Thank you @morriswalters for saving me the search for the quote.
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Harry was not a vassal but Lea was and it was Lea's obligation that Mab was fulfilling. Thank you @morriswalters for saving me the search for the quote.
I tried to help, but misread the quote at five this morning on one swallow of coffee... :-[
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Harry was not a vassal but Lea was and it was Lea's obligation that Mab was fulfilling. Thank you @morriswalters for saving me the search for the quote.
And which obligation would that be?
Lea had no general obligation to protect Harry except to Margaret when Harry was a child (and god did she suck at that) she owed no obligation to protect adult Harry, she was if anything his stalker, trying to bind him to her.
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I have no idea what the deal was between Lea and Margaret but as of Changes it was still in effect.
I frowned. “But . . . you sold my debt to Mab.”
“Precisely. At an excellent price, I might add. So now, all that remains twixt thou and I is your mother’s bargain. Unless you would prefer to enter another compact, of course . . .”
This is Lea speaking to Harry about the Garden on the other side from Harry's lab where the Primrose Path and the caterpillar live. The one she used to guard that portal.
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Ah! I see the confusion, Harry owes Mab a debt, Mab does not owe any obligation to protect Harry, because that consideration is passed. To claim Mab’s protection would be to do as Elaine did, take refuge in The Court and swear fealty to her so you owe the Queen an obligation.
Mab only now has an obligation to protect Harry where as a member of her court he is acting as a representative of Winter and she might still pay the wereguild instead.
Mab is hardwired through her Mantle to require something in return, she is purely transactional, she has to have something in return for whatever is given, even If it is a promise of future service. Harry could have begged for Mab to protect him, but she would have required him to become Winter Knight
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Lea had an obligation to protect Harry, not just as a child but as an adult. Butcher uses this to motivate Mab's actions in PG. She must act for Lea since her restraint of Lea is keeping Lea from fulfilling her promise to Margaret. That is straight out of the text and I've already quoted it.
g33k's original theory is about who is working for who. Butcher will have to supply that detail if he ever gets to that point. Maybe he will plot it the way that g33k predicts, I have no idea.
I now have an idea about about where the paradox in the story is. Events had to play out so Harry's apartment would be empty when it was. Harry couldn't be allowed to use LC before it was fixed. If he finds out too early that Molly is the source of Black Magic the apartment never gets vacated and Harry dies when he attempts to use it
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That quote merely states (1) that Harry’s debt to Lea, his obligation to her has been sold to Lea and (2) all that is left is Margaret’s bargain, and (3) she is open to making another bargain with Harry. We are not told Margaret’s bargain but the WOJ is that when Harry finds out he will want to kill Lea. The bargain most likely was “protect my child until he is of age and you may have the firstborn female of my bloodline when she is of age.” Not “protect Harry for his entire life in return for something, something….” Lea clearly has NOT protected Harry for the entirety of the files from Restoration of Faith onwards when he would have been 22 or 23 i.e. of age in most cultures.
On neither side is this an open-ended commitment, Wizards live over 400 years, as with Elaine there is an end point to the bargain . Lea is long past protecting Harry, she has performed her side of the bargain and she hasn’t yet collected on her part of the bargain. Ever wondered why Lea accompanied Harry in Changes to Chicken Pizza ? She was protecting the fruit of her bargain, not Harry, Maggie.
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Perhaps the Fae are different but among the people I know, you're a godparent forever.
And Harry hasn't reached 50 yet. To Mab and Lea he's still a child. They even refer to him as "child" in most of their conversations.
But if you won't take direct quote's into account, then I guess your opinion is set in stone.
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I hope I don't get moderated for too long a quote, but here goes.
“Indeed, child,” she said. “Did you not think it strange that in your turmoil-strewn time here none of your foes—not one—ever sought to enter from the other side? Never sent a spirit given form directly into your bed, your shower, your refrigerator? Never poured a basket of asps into your closet so that they sought refuge in your shoes, your boots, the pockets of your clothing?” She shook her head. “Sweet, sweet child. Had you walked much farther, you would have seen the mound of bones of all the things that have attempted to reach you, and which I have destroyed.”
“Yeah, well. I nearly wound up there myself.”
“La,” she said, smiling. “My guardians were created to attack any intruder—including one that looked like you. We couldn’t have some clever shapeshifter slipping by, now, could we?” She sighed. “You took a terrible toll on my primroses. Honestly, child, there are elements other than fire, you know. You really ought to diversify. Now I have two gaping maws to feed instead of one.”
“I’ll . . . be more careful next time,” I said.
“I should appreciate such a thing.” She studied me quietly. “It has been true for your entire lifetime, child. I have followed you in the spirit world. Created guardians and defenses ’pon the other side to ward your sleep, to stand sentinel over your home. And you still have only the beginnings of an idea of how many have tried.” She smiled, showing her delicately pointed canine teeth again. “Tried, and failed.”
Which also explained how she was always near at hand whenever I had entered the Nevernever. How she would be upon my trail in seconds whenever I went in.
Because she had been there, protecting me.
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I hope I don't get moderated for too long a quote, but here goes.
I hope not, the whole quote is needed..
Lea had no general obligation to protect Harry except to Margaret when Harry was a child (and god did she suck at that) she owed no obligation to protect adult Harry, she was if anything his stalker, trying to bind him to her.
Harry remains her godchild whether six or sixty years of age.. Think about it, Lea is immortal, so Harry's age has no meaning for her, heck, she still calls him, "child." I also doubt that Margaret told her to protect Harry only for his first 18 years...
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Perhaps the Fae are different but among the people I know, you're a godparent forever.
And Harry hasn't reached 50 yet. To Mab and Lea he's still a child. They even refer to him as "child" in most of their conversations.
But if you won't take direct quote's into account, then I guess your opinion is set in stone.
I am taking the quote, just not the parts which are being implied into it without any provenance. Treating something as a fact when it is nothing more than a theory still does not make it a fact. I am not called Conspiracy Factualist.
As previously stated, Lea is Harry’s stalker, she moved in next door to keep a better eye on Harry, and to the extent none of Harry’s foes want to try to break in from next door does not change the fact this is a voluntarily assumed pattern of behaviour on Leas part and not an obligation. There is still no obligation for Mab to assume. This is ‘protection’ Harry neither asked for or wants. Unless she was subject to a bargain or compact, Lea cannot intervene in the mortal world, so she has limited herself to the Never Never because she doesn’t need a bargain to do that, she is still hoping Harry will enter into a bargain, and indeed is still offering one.
If it were that simple than when Mab took over that ‘obligation’ then the Castle would come out not in Leas murder Garden, but instead Arctis Tor in the Never Never which would back up another of my theories that Harry is seeking to achieve exactly that.
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I frowned. "You locked her away somewhere, but you're keeping her promises?"
Something cold and haughty flickered through Mab's eyes. "Promises must be kept," she murmured, and the words made wave, wind, and stone tremble. "My vassal's oaths and bargains are binding upon me, so long as I restrain her from fulfilling them."
"Does that mean that you will help me?" I asked.
"It means that I will give you what she might give you," Mab said, "and speak what knowledge she might have spoken to you were she here in flesh, rather than in proxy."
That's Point 1 This is Mab saying she must cover Lea's obligation to Harry because she has Lea locked in ice and unable to fulfill her bargain
Point 2 This is Lea after getting out of the ice saying that her bargain with Margaret is still active with no expiration date
I frowned. “But . . . you sold my debt to Mab.”
“Precisely. At an excellent price, I might add. So now, all that remains twixt thou and I is your mother’s bargain. Unless you would prefer to enter another compact, of course . . .”
Point 3 This is what Lea has done in keeping that bargain. The fact that it often helped her stalk Harry originally for his debt is explained. But the debt is gone now so only protection remains. and note that this conversation takes place Before they leave for Chichen Itza. Lea helps Harry on this quest because Mab orders her to during Harry's initiation and Winter Knight bargain at the Stone Table.
Indeed, child,” she said. “Did you not think it strange that in your turmoil-strewn time here none of your foes—not one—ever sought to enter from the other side? Never sent a spirit given form directly into your bed, your shower, your refrigerator? Never poured a basket of asps into your closet so that they sought refuge in your shoes, your boots, the pockets of your clothing?” She shook her head. “Sweet, sweet child. Had you walked much farther, you would have seen the mound of bones of all the things that have attempted to reach you, and which I have destroyed.”
“Yeah, well. I nearly wound up there myself.”
“La,” she said, smiling. “My guardians were created to attack any intruder—including one that looked like you. We couldn’t have some clever shapeshifter slipping by, now, could we?” She sighed. “You took a terrible toll on my primroses. Honestly, child, there are elements other than fire, you know. You really ought to diversify. Now I have two gaping maws to feed instead of one.”
“I’ll . . . be more careful next time,” I said.
“I should appreciate such a thing.” She studied me quietly. “It has been true for your entire lifetime, child. I have followed you in the spirit world. Created guardians and defenses ’pon the other side to ward your sleep, to stand sentinel over your home. And you still have only the beginnings of an idea of how many have tried.” She smiled, showing her delicately pointed canine teeth again. “Tried, and failed.”
Which also explained how she was always near at hand whenever I had entered the Nevernever. How she would be upon my trail in seconds whenever I went in.
Because she had been there, protecting me.
Point 4 Lea takes over teaching Molly while Harry is walkabout in GS. She even continues to teach Harry when she is about to be assaulted by Listen and crew. Do you think this is because of her whimsical fae nature?
I am taking the quote, just not the parts which are being implied into it without any provenance. Treating something as a fact when it is nothing more than a theory still does not make it a fact. I am not called Conspiracy Factualist.
As previously stated, Lea is Harry’s stalker, she moved in next door to keep a better eye on Harry, and to the extent none of Harry’s foes want to try to break in from next door does not change the fact this is a voluntarily assumed pattern of behaviour on Leas part and not an obligation. There is still no obligation for Mab to assume. This is ‘protection’ Harry neither asked for or wants. Unless she was subject to a bargain or compact, Lea cannot intervene in the mortal world, so she has limited herself to the Never Never because she doesn’t need a bargain to do that, she is still hoping Harry will enter into a bargain, and indeed is still offering one.
If it were that simple than when Mab took over that ‘obligation’ then the Castle would come out not in Leas murder Garden, but instead Arctis Tor in the Never Never which would back up another of my theories that Harry is seeking to achieve exactly that.
No, you're just taking out the parts of the book that contradict your theories and ignoring them. The books(Remember them?) go into many examples of how liege to vassal debt works. A good theory should include observing the actual phenomena available pertaining to it's subject.
I'm not trying to attack you. I actually find you insightful and innovative much of the time. But you tend to get your head canon confused with the actual book text. Or do you not realize that there is more provenance in the books for this being the way obligations work than there is for your direct Way from Arctis Tor to Demonreach theory?
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As an aside, this also means that Mab had to take over paying the Za Guard while Harry was stuck in AT, which I find hilarious.
Imagine Mab in a shitty chain pizza restaurant.
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Once again Harry only became Mab’s Vassal in Changes in taking on the Winter Knight Mantle, prior to that he owed Mab favours (through Lea) meaning he was not a vassal and not owed any form of obligation of protection by Mab. Mab was not Nicky’s vassal when she owed him a favour, nor is she Butters (and through him The White God) because she owes him a favour.
Vassallage is a bilateral relationship - Harry owes Mab, but Mab owes Harry. A favour is unilateral relationship, there is no corresponding obligation on the Person who is owed the favour. Mab took on all of Harry’s obligations when he was incapacitated, from tutoring Molly, to feeding the Za Guard to returning Harry’s overdue Library books which burnt in his basement in Changes (she obviously reconstituted them from the ashes handed them in and paid the fine) because he was her vassal.
The Fae can only apparently interact with mortals through a bargain i.e. an exercise of free will by the mortal. This would suggest the mortal has not to be under a disability, e.g. of age of sound mind and not intoxicated. Harry was still a minor in calling upon Lea for the first time he could not make a bargain with her. Ergo the bargain was with his mother to protect him. That was the first time (in file) Harry was physically threatened that we are aware of. The next time is in Restoration of Faith and there is no Lea to protect Harry. Harry is of age at this point suggesting his mothers bargain had expired by effluxion of time. Lea at this point is trying to inveigle Harry into his own bargain, which he stupidly does in GP, only to pull the Mushroom trick.
Harry has had the benefit of his bargain with Lea by being healed by her, his reneging on it and commuting it to ‘favours’ she has no obligation to Harry, it is he who has an obligation to Lea. Harry could die at any time with no progeny leaving his ‘favours’ unfulfilled, leaving Lea with a bad debt, but Lea has no corresponding obligation to protect Harry to do so without invitation is (1) meddling in mortal affairs and (2) leaves her with an unresolved gift, as Harry will not give anything in return . The only thing that Lea can do to protect her investment Harry has to be purely in the NeverNever so she creates the Murder Garden, not only to protect Harry but to spy on him and perhaps influence him in ways consistent with his Mothers bargain i.e beget Maggie.
Mab has given Harry a gift (Christmas Eve) but that is a boon to her Vassal who performed above expectations that year at the height of her powers a reward rather than a first. However no such vassalage relationship exists between Lea and Harry.
What I am trying to do is puzzle out the interactions applying between Fae and mortals, which by its nature HAS to be consistent with the exception of the nemfected. Quoting from the text is of limited value because it is based on Harry as an unreliable narrator with him having in the early books a limited understanding of the different relationships of favours, obligations, Vassallage etc. It should be noted that the Mantle includes an automatic adherence to Winter Law, meaning that Harry pre Changes point of view of these factors is very different to that of post changes he ‘knows’ things he previously only guessed at. The same facts looked at post-Changes may be assessed very differently by Harry.
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Once again Harry only became Mab’s Vassal in Changes in taking on the Winter Knight Mantle, prior to that he owed Mab favours (through Lea) meaning he was not a vassal and not owed any form of obligation of protection by Mab. Mab was not Nicky’s vassal when she owed him a favour, nor is she Butters (and through him The White God) because she owes him a favour.
If I remember correctly, Mab took over Harry's original bargain/contract with Lea back in Summer Knight that is how she forced for lack of a better word him to work for her to solve the murder. Remember the scene where he as he was a mere mortal had made no bargain with her, and Mab promptly forced him to push a letter spike through his hand? But even after that happened, Lea still was trying to help her godson, she also warned him about getting too close to the stone table.
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Harry was still a minor in calling upon Lea for the first time he could not make a bargain with her.
Err... yes he did. The bargain he had with Lea was the one that he made before he faced Justin- his life for the power to face his Master (though Lea cheated him with the magic feather).
Harry even calls her out on this at the start of Grave Peril "You shouldn't make contracts with a Minor" were his words iirc.
It's just that Harry was able to avoid fulfilling his end of the bargain because Lea was mostly content to wait in the Never Never. Harry's breakdown at Bianca's party was because it was Lea's third time demanding he keep the Bargain (once as a teenage, once after he and Michael fought the ghost, once at the party) and rule of three caused his magic to fuck him up for breaking his word.
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Err... yes he did. The bargain he had with Lea was the one that he made before he faced Justin- his life for the power to face his Master (though Lea cheated him with the magic feather).
Harry even calls her out on this at the start of Grave Peril "You shouldn't make contracts with a Minor" were his words iirc.
It's just that Harry was able to avoid fulfilling his end of the bargain because Lea was mostly content to wait in the Never Never. Harry's breakdown at Bianca's party was because it was Lea's third time demanding he keep the Bargain (once as a teenage, once after he and Michael fought the ghost, once at the party) and rule of three caused his magic to fuck him up for breaking his word.
Yes, all the while claiming she was trying to protect him by wanting to turn him into one of her hounds. It was Harry's fear of her collecting on their bargain that motivated him to try and kill her with a Holy Sword which he promptly lost to her, because the Sword wouldn't allow itself to be used that way.
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I wouldn't sell Harry a used car, he'd probably quit making the payments. But is has nothing to do with Lea protecting him. The bargain that has been protecting him was one between Lea and Margaret. We have no idea what that bargain is all about.
So to recap. Harry makes bargains with Lea. Lea sells those bargains to Mab during a power play by Mab. Mab renegotiates and offers Harry a cleaner bargain and works it so Harry owes her three favors.
Lea is still fulfilling her obligation to Margaret to protect Harry as of Changes, after which she has been out of sight.
That is pretty much how it plays out in the books. I would post the relevant quotes but that seems to be pointless. Read Summer Knight it has the gist.
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Nameless is of course Cowl
I haven't yet listened or read The Law, but I read some highlights and I didn't see this. Is the Nameless clearly Cowl? I thought the Nameless was a demi-god? Cowl's magic is strong, but Harry makes a point of noting that it isn't "inhuman" which a demigod's presumably would be...
But as I haven't read The Law, I would love some clarification as I quite possibly missed some clues potentially.
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I haven't yet listened or read The Law, but I read some highlights and I didn't see this. Is the Nameless clearly Cowl? I thought the Nameless was a demi-god? Cowl's magic is strong, but Harry makes a point of noting that it isn't "inhuman" which a demigod's presumably would be...
But as I haven't read The Law, I would love some clarification as I quite possibly missed some clues potentially.
You are correct, Cowl, from the descriptions of him, powerful, yes, some black magic, yes, but he is no demi-god.
Lea is still fulfilling her obligation to Margaret to protect Harry as of Changes, after which she has been out of sight.
I wouldn't say that, in Ghost Story when she and Harry have their little talk, and she helps him to remember, she is still helping him to get information that in the later books his life might depend.
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Nameless is an interesting new character but there is nothing to indicate whether he is or is not Cowl.
The only real indications of his actual power are from Bob telling Harry who he is and how Harry probably can't take him and from how he reacts to Mab and Marcone.
As far as magic goes, he never actually does anything in the story besides trade verbal threats with Harry in his office, staying very much in character as a powerful supernatural evil lawyer.
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I haven't yet listened or read The Law, but I read some highlights and I didn't see this. Is the Nameless clearly Cowl? I thought the Nameless was a demi-god? Cowl's magic is strong, but Harry makes a point of noting that it isn't "inhuman" which a demigod's presumably would be...
But as I haven't read The Law, I would love some clarification as I quite possibly missed some clues potentially.
Read The Law two important clues are dropped (1) Nameless worked with (not for) Kemmler and was paperclipped into Winter and Cowl was familiar with Kemmler and especially Bob, but dismissive of his students. (2) Nameless was banned from Arctis Tor after the attack in Proven Guilty (he wasn’t at Harry’s birthday party) with the clear implication he was involved. The alleged purpose of the attack was to free the Nemfected Lea, before she could be cured and of course it was Cowl in Grave Peril who infected Lea in the first place with the Athame.
This course of action suggests Nameless has been working inside Winter to undermine it, and therefore the Accords and the Defence of the Outer Gates. Nameless is powerful enough to subdue a Finnish Witch, which in the good old days took three Wardens to achieve, so he is as powerful as at least three Wardens (who are individually considerably less powerful on average than Harry). There is no intimation Nameless is immortal, merely ageless, like many of the Fae, suggesting a power level less than the Winter Lady (the least powerful immortal shown) and that he can be hurt and killed (Harry has hurt Cowl, at least twice) and the Darkhallow would have been a route to full godhood, immortality and power, something both Cowl and Nameless would pursue.
Oh and by the way Cowl’s costume would have been appropriate for a High Court Judge in the UK up to the 1300’s, who indeed wore cowls. Nameless practices as a lawyer in the US a common law jurisdiction derived from the UK legal common law system, so presumably was previously practicing in that system before this. He is a Demi-god of discord after all.
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Once again Harry only became Mab’s Vassal in Changes in taking on the Winter Knight Mantle ...
The point is nothing to do with Harry's "Vassal" relationship (which doesn't exist, pre-Changes where Harry takes the WK Mantle); but with Lea's Vassalage to Mab. It also is about Lea's "Faerie Godmother" relationship to Harry, which transitively becomes Mab's when she puts Lea on ice.
I (very) strongly suspect that -- if it expires -- Lea's "Faerie Godmother" bargain expired the moment Harry became WK. That was the point Harry became "grown up" from the perspective of governing law. Before that, Lea was fully-obligated (insofar as the bargain held) to "protect" Harry as his FG; and Mab if she acted to prevent Lea.
I also suspect the role of "FG" is substantive & meaningful under Faerie Law... it's possible Margaret didn't have to bargain very hard at all, to get comprehensive and far-reaching protections for Harry, as soon as "FG" was invoked. Indeed, she may have had remarkably LITTLE room on that side of the bargain.
... he was not a vassal and not owed any form of obligation of protection by Mab ...
Harry's vassalage (or rather, as you point out, lack thereof) was irrelevant to the case. Lea was Mab's vassal, and that is the relevant point: when Mab puts Lea on ice, she takes over the entirety of Lea's obligations.
Lea's Murder Garden -- part of her FG duties -- is still there, in Changes. Lea was still Harry's FG (at least up through the start of the book).
As previously stated, Lea is Harry’s stalker ...
I see very little light between Lea-as-stalker vs. Lea-as-Faerie-Godmother.
This is Lea we're talking about!
Several of the quotes provided in this thread show both Lea and Mab expressing that the FG obligation still exists; and this is well into Harry's (mortal-POV) "adult" years.
You aren't providing ANY data to the contrary, only personal-interpretation stuff that is explicitly contradicted by the quotes already provided.
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I have been trying to unpick the bundle of faerie obligations, so please do not misquote me.
The first obligation laid down on Harry was without his consent due to a bargain between Margaret and Lea. That was likely still operative by the time Harry called on Lea, Lea could not make a bargain to protect Harry if she was already protecting Harry, she cannot accept a gift which any such a bargain would have been at that time especially as Harry was a minor she could however leave Harry with the idea that he had made a bargain with her as leverage for a future legitimate bargain with Harry when his previous protection had lapsed which occurred in Grave Peril, when Harry was of age.
Vassalage is a far more complex web of relationships it is the difference between a contract for services and a contract of service, with Vassalage the latter, Lea’s Bargains the former. Under the latter Mab would be responsible for finishing Molly’s training, under the former she would not.
The Fae I think accept the sovereignty of the mortal jurisdiction in which any bargain is made where the mortal is physically making the bargain, as the governing law of the contract, there is a WOJ that Mab steps very carefully in the UK because it too has a Sovereign Queen (one reason why the White Council is probably based there). Note Mab AND Nameless are both qualified Lawyers in the Illinois Bar which is suggestive that their dealings with Mortals actually do intersect with mortal legal jurisdictions. Fae law does not seem to apply as the governing law unless the bargain is actually made in the Never Never. Vassalage on the other hand is clearly subject to Winter Law as the governing law wherever the parties subject to it may be, that too is clear from The Law. Harry was also taken into the Never Never to enter into vassalage as the Winter Knight, making that the governing law.
I fully expect Nameless to try to get even with Harry by taking on Larry Fowlers case, as that is a way Nameless can use the law of the Illinois jurisdiction without falling fouler of Winter Law. For example The Witchcraft Act of 1604 is apparently still valid in Illinois and Harry has broken most of those provisions, a year in prison and a trip to the pillory may be in order for the self-proclaimed Wizard of Chicago. Look it up, it’s a hoot, especially if you get a hard copy and tick all of Harry’s infractions.
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But as far as we have been told in print, Margaret's bargain with Lea has not obligated Harry to do anything.
Harry owed Lea because he bargained for the power to fight HWWB with her. It is only tangentially related because were unlikely to meet without it.
Also the favor system and the vassalage systems are completely separate. Favors are one shot tit for tat tasks that can be very unequal and can be serious or whimsical in fulfillment.(Or both, "Bring me a donut" comes to mind.) Vassalage is a long term series of obligations that can affect all aspects of life and can transfer generationally.
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I love definition wars. But I love the text even more. Harry never realizes that Lea is protecting him until Changes. Which I would speculate was about the time that Butcher folded the idea into whatever passes for canon for him. At which point he writes the backstory support for the idea. The first clear indication however lies in Summer Knight when Lea warns him about the Stone Table.
I think that CT may have a point about the Law. It's clumsy text but I don't think it speaks to Cowl's origin since I seem to remember a WOJ where Butcher says that Cowl is someone we've seen in the text prior to now, which would leave Nameless out.